New Testament Church Proliferation Digest

Spreading the Gospel via House Churches

Oct 12, 2001 Vol 01 : 079

NT Church Proliferation Digest Friday, October 19 2001 Vol 01 : 079

Re: [ntcp] Discipling 'Cousins'
[ntcp] London
Re: [ntcp] Discipling 'Cousins'

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:14:03 +0200
From: "Deborah"
Subject: Re: [ntcp] Discipling 'Cousins'

Michael Gastin wrote:

> Without starting an argument - or is it too late? .... I do not

> think you are addressing my direct comments in context.

> 1. I am not against discipline ....

> 2. I do not think that to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit is

> to be completely spontaneous or unstructured ....

Okay, perhaps I didn't follow you and I read too much into your
comments. For that I apologize. I got the impression you were
advocating a kind of "when the HS moves me" type of prayer life. If
not, I stand corrected. We're in agreement then, ... on the above two

> 3. As to the early church - you know - when we go there, we might

> as well all become Jewish, worship on the Sabbath in Synagogue

> and then meet from house to house during the week at the feet of

> ordained apostles. When you take that to its logical conclusion,

> that is what you are left with. I do not think we are to replicate the
> people of the first 100 years of our faith in order to "get it right".

> anyone ready to go that route? Drop your whole gentile identity

> and go the Jewish Christian route? Because for the most part,

> that is all we had for the first 100 years ...

Let's go back, Michael, and examine what you had earlier written:

>> If you look at our cousins and realize why they have set

>> times of prayer it is because they have not indwelling.

>> Thus, they *need* those set times and rules to ensure they

>> are continually in God's favor. We, on the other hand,

>> are in his favor no matter what, so form there it is simply

>> (I say simply, but it is life's biggest challenge) a matter

>> of knowing the voice of the master and being obedient to

>> that voice.

You had established a dichotomy between those who were "indwel[t]" and
thus didn't "need" set times of prayer, and those who "have not
indwelling," and hence "need" set times of prayer, "and rules". True?
True. You might have been trying to stress that "cousins" were striving
to earn their favor with God by their scheduled "appointments". But
that's not the total sum of your words as I read them. I saw also that
you were contrasting those who were "indwel[t]" with those who were
not-- and the need for set times of prayer as one of the symptoms for
the "un-indwelt" crowd ("*because* they have not indwelling"). On the
other hand, those of us who are believers may dispense with such props
since we have God's favor already and can hear His voice. And I bet I'm
not the only one who understood you thus. Therefore, and with the best
intentions of simply drawing our thoughts back to a scriptural
foundation, I brought up a biblical counter-example.

What I was seeking to emphasize was not that we are to replicate
each detail of the early Jewish Church-- neither possible nor
necessary-- but that these post-Pentecost people were *obviously*
indwelt, *obviously* hearing God's voice, and *still* observing set
times of prayer. While *obviously* enjoying the express favor of the
Almighty. Their devotion to "THE prayers" was portrayed by Luke as a
mark of the early believers' piety along with their devotion to "the
apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread ..."
(Act. 2:42). My point, therefore, was merely to show that 'indwel[t]"
godly Christians in the Bible, valuable if only for their example, were
doing what you said they need not do. If not a direct contradiction
between your advice and the inspired record of the early Church, the
model in Acts certainly diminishes the value of your opinion here.
Hence, I concluded that it's okay-- desirable even-- to both adopt set
times of prayer and to teach others that they too may adopt set times of
prayer. It is not settling for less than the best, nor does it reflect
upon one's ability to to hear the voice of "the Lover of [one's] soul".

> I am talking about the work of God - not trying to replicate anything.
> I want what He is doing now, today ... and I will live within the

> principles revealed in His scripture.

If you are wisely giving a backward glance for bearings to "the
principles revealed in [God's] Scripture" then you too must take into
account the example of the early Church and how as "principles" their
example has relevance for our lives today. Not just in "theory," but in
tackling "actual experiences, challenges or obstacles that exist".
Agreed? :-)



------- <><><> -------

Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 09:02:17 -0600
From: Phillip Cohen
Subject: [ntcp] London


Mary and I and 2 of our children want to visit London in a few weeks,
while plane tickets are cheap. We'd like to see what God is doing in
people's lives and what people are doing with God. We thought we'd visit
Ichthus Christian Fellowship for a starter.

Well, the cost of hotels & B & B's are prohibitive. So last night at
Bible study, a brother told me about an exchange agreement people make
with each other: "You stay at our place, & we'll come to the states &
stay at your place." That sounds great! Does anyone know how to tap into

Or is there someone on this list in London, or someone you know who'd
like Christian visitors? We'd like to be there from Tuesday, November 13
through Thursday the 22nd. Our schedule can be somewhat flexible . . .

Please let us know (offlist) soon, while the tickets are still cheap.
We'll email you a photo of our family :o)

Thanks. God bless.
Phillip & Mary Cohen
So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and
worship thou him. Psalm 45:11

------- <><><> -------

Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:04:56 +0700
From: "Link"
Subject: Re: [ntcp] Discipling 'Cousins'

Link to Jay
>I think I said what I needed to say the best I could say it for the
>present. My point is, just in case you missed it, that even if we get
>rid of Bin Laden, if we don't stop making war on each other in the Name
>of the Lord, we will have missed the point.

Hi Jay,

I don't see discussing an issue like this as making war on one another. This
conversation seems to be going fine, and people seem to be learning.

> Putting ourselves under law
>is the the wrong sacrifice. It has to do with wrong attitude, and that
>attitude, whether success or failure, like that of Cain, ends up being a

I think where we disagree is with the idea that _suggesting_ or giving someone
an example of regular prayer times is supposedly putting people under the Law.
I don't see where the Bible teaches that having regular habits is the same thing
as being under the Law. Mike M. Has made a case for the eariest Christians
following a set prayer pattern.

I think it's possible to get 'legalistic' about not being under the Law. I've
been on HC lists for several years, soo I've got to read the thoughts of a
variety of HC people. Some HC people are really reactionary. The 'IC' has
programs, and so they think programs are bad. The IC is organized, and so they
say organization is bad. The 'IC' has salaried ministers, so some HC people
even believe that evangelists should not be supported. I even read a post from
someone who didn't want to go to a wedding because, for him, going into a church
building was like going into an idols temple.

This type of thinking can lead to a 'touch not, taste not' mentality. I don't
see any reason to think that saying set prayers or having set prayer times is
putting oneself under the Law. In fact, it is likely that some early Christians
did have set prayer times and set prayers.

I agree that we need a new creation. That doesn't preclude set prayer times or
other disciplines.


End of New Testament Church Proliferation Digest V1 #79

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