New Testament Church Proliferation Digest

Spreading the Gospel via House Churches

Nov 1, 2001 Vol 01 : 084

NT Church Proliferation Digest Thursday, November 1 2001 Vol 01 : 084

Re: [ntcp] Hand-chopping conversation
Re: [ntcp] 'Religion' is not a dirty word
[ntcp] Re:
Re: [ntcp] Re:
[ntcp] Church Planting discussion
[ntcp] Fw: Response
Re: [ntcp] 'Religion' is not a dirty word
[ntcp] Oops

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:23:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Beck
Subject: Re: [ntcp] Hand-chopping conversation


In the koran, Sura 4:171 says Isa (Jesus) is the
ru'e'allah, that is Jesus is the spirit of God.

That passage I've heard in testimony to a cousin who
is now born-again.



- --- Link wrote:
>I mentioned earlier that I have a "Cousin" (code) friend at work who confessed
>to having stolen something small as a child while we were discussing the
>penalty of hand-chopping for theft found in his religion.
>We went to a little food house for lunch today, just me and him. I brought up
>the subject of him stealing batteries. He seemed remorseful over it. Anyway,
>I asked him to put his hand on the table, and picked up a fork like I was
>going to preforate his hand off with it. He laughed.
>I told him about a hadith (traditional recorded sayings attributed to Moh. and
>considered to be authoritative) about a woman who was arrested for theft and
>taken to Moh.. She pled for forgiveness and to keep her hand. Moh. told her
>that after she lost her hand, she would be as innocent as when she was born.
>He was familiar with the hadith.
>I asked him if that woman had to have her hand cut off to have her sins
>forgiven, how he expected God to forgive him if his hand didn't get cut off?
>We had an interesting discussion after that comparing Christianity to his
>He admitted to being afraid of the day of judgement. He wasn't aware of the
>hadith or Koranic saying that Jesus would be the judge at the end and I'll
>have to look it up and show him.
>My friend is contentious about praying. He related some of the teachings he
>had heard about the judgement. I suspect some of the teachings- like the one
>about the scale and the number one factor in the day of judgement being
>faithfulness in prayer .
>I told him about salvation through faith in Christ. He was surprised to hear
>about promises of salvation in Christianity. He wasn't aware of that. I
>don't think He knew about the passage that calls Jesus the Word of God either.
> I need to look that up for him.
>I shared with him my thoughts about how futile it is to try to earn salvation
>with good works, and paraphrased some scripture on the subject. I told about
>Jesus' parable about the servants who did what they were told and said they
>were unprofitable servants who had only done what they were supposed to do.
>If God _requires_ us to do good works, then it is a sin not to do them. But
>doing good works won't wipe away our debt of sin to God. I told him about the
>teaching that Abraham was justified by faith.
>We talked about several other things. I told him something I borrowed from
>the man from a Coptic church who seemed bold about evangelism that I met a few
>weeks back. I pointed out that the Bible said that Mary was a virgin when
>Jesus was born, and he seemed to think that was accurate. I asked him if he
>believed God caused Mary to be pregnant. Then I said Jesus had no human
>father. If God caused Mary to be pregnant, then who was Jesus' Father? He
>didn't have an answer. He seemed to get my point.
>I pointed out something I learned from a believer from Morocco who used to be
>a 'cousin.' He said that the Arabic word for 'son' in their confession that
>says that God has no son is the word 'walad' which specifically refers to
>physical offspring. Both Christians and 'cousins' agree that God did not ever
>have sexual relations with anyone. The Arabic Christian confession is that
>Jesus is the 'ibn' of God, the 'Son' of God. But not the 'walad' of God.
>It was interesting to see the principle of the Law of God that was already at
>work in the heart of this Gentile unbeliever. He is the type to always go to
>meetings and to pray according to schedule. He went to a religious school,
>and for people here, he probably knows his books fairly well. But they are in
>another language. There were areas where I think he believes later traditions
>are from the Koran (based on what m'naries have said about it.)
>Anyway, I'd appreciate prayer about this. I'll try to look up passages from
>the Koran, etc. for him. I have a book of the quotes in those writings
>related to Jesus. Maybe we can continue the conversation later.
>I'd appreciate prayer. I'm not really evangelistic. When I try to share the
>Gospel, I just come on too strong at times. This time, though, things went
>well. I know this man pretty well, and we get along well. He seemed to find
>the conversation interesting, and didn't seem threatened, though he did fear
>the judgement of God. He (rightly) has guilt for sinning against God.
>I have a knee-jerk reaction sometimes to canned ev. techniques. For example,
>saying to an insurance salesman "I have some eternal life insurance I'd like
>to tell you about." But I do think there is some value to these things.
>Half-jokingly offering to chop off the hand of a 'cousin' who has stolen may
>be a good way to get deeper into a conversation. I'm also very grateful for
>those who have told me the ways they have reasoned using their own book, about
>the word of God, the virgin birth, and other things.
>One thing I'm thinking about is pointing out that their book says that God is
>the greatest deceiver of all. I could show that verse and then ask someone
>how they knew that what they had been taught in their holy book was not just a
>great deception sent to them by the great deceiver to trip them up.
>Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousness,
>and judgement. I've started to wonder about this passage and how it relates
>to ev'lism- something that could neatly be packaged into a sermon about
>:) We just, like Jesus, do what we see the Father
>doing. The Father sent the Spirit, and the work of the Spirit in the world is
>to convict of sin, righteousness, and judgement. When we share the Gospel, we
>should just cooperate with what the Spirit does, pointing out to people that
>they have sinned and Jesus the solution for that sin. We should tell them
>about righteousness, laying out God's righteous standard for them. We should
>talk about judgment. In the end, we will all stand before a righteous God who
>will judge us by the one Man Whom He has appointed, Jesus Christ. Since the
>Holy Spirit is convicting the world in these areas, when we 'persuade men' we
>just talk about the things the Spirit is convicting men of, cast down
>imaginations with the word of God, and let the Holy Spirit do His work.
>Please also pray for my friend. His name is Hedy. Pray that he will be
>convicted and will see His need for faith in Christ.
>Link Jakarta

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Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:00:17 -0500
From: David Anderson
Subject: Re: [ntcp] 'Religion' is not a dirty word

Dear body of Christ, including Link,

Praise the Lord for the good news about your growing family!!!!

And thanks for this excellent and unusual post, one of a just a few
received over a several year period in which the word "religion" wasn't
employed as a filthy cuss word.

Unless we have the authority to create new meanings for old words, then I
guess we are just stuck with these two - religion and religious.
Religion, in the minds of misinformed persons, has become synonymous with
- -false- religion, religiosity, formality, etc.

As you pointed out so well, things like habit, preference, and liturgy
have nothing whatsoever with trying to earn salvation.

As long as Jesus Christ is the object and center of our affection or
devotion or religion or doctrine, then there is no reason to cast these
words overboard, much less to employ them in ways that make others wonder
about our comprehension. I do not, however, encourage the use of these
words if such is against one's liking.

David Anderson

__________ American Heritage Dictionary

re-lig-ion n. 1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or
powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or
institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life
or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs,
values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A
cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious

re-lig-ious adj. 1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God
or a deity. 2. Of, concerned with, or teaching religion: a religious
text. 3. Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to
duty. n. pl. religious 1. A member of a monastic order, especially a nun
or monk.

__________ NIV sampling:

Acts 25:19 Instead, they had some points of dispute with him about
their own religion and about a dead man named Jesus who Paul claimed was

Acts 26:5 They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they
are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I
lived as a Pharisee.

1Tim. 5:4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should
learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for
their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this
is pleasing to God.

James 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep
a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless
is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep
oneself from being polluted by the world.

1Tim. 1:9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for
lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and
irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,

Col. 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or
drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or
a Sabbath day.

Hebr. 10:11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his
religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which
can never take away sins.

James 1:26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep
a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is

------- <><><> -------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:16:45 +0700
From: "Link"
Subject: [ntcp] Re:

For some reason I got your message in my mailbox, but not on New Testament Church Proliferation. My guess is
that you put something on a Cc: (or maybe Bcc:) line (like my address) and Dave Anderson's computer program put it in que for approval because of that. I'll wait a while to see if it comes up as being sent by 'forwarded' before emailing Dave about it.

Thanks for posting! I'm sure you have a lot to share with the newsgroup. I'd
like to see missionaries discussing pertinent issues, and experienced HC
planters mentoring newer ones on the list.


------- <><><> -------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 08:49:39 -0500
From: "Dan Beaty"
Subject: Re: [ntcp] Re:


My post to you was just personal. I appreciate the work you are doing here.
I too would like to see more pertainent Church Planting topic discussed.

Dan Beaty
Columbus, Ohio USA

------- <><><> -------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:12:32 EST
From: Steffasong
Subject: [ntcp] Church Planting discussion

Dan and Link,

How's this for a question about Church Planting discussion?

What does one do when there is already a work in an area, yet God has called
that one to plant and establish?

If we do not believe in division but uphold the oneness of the body,
shouldn't we work shoulder to shoulder with those in our midst already sowing
the seeds of the Gospel of the Kingdom? OR, .... because of the gifts of the
Holy Spirit and the passion to see His purposes revealed more and more in the
Earth, does one simply move on to another area (town or city) where there is
an apparent need?

Just some fodder for discussion, ...
Stephanie Bennett
Horizon Creative Services & Consulting
Marketing Solutions for the 21st Century

------- <><><> -------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:28:31 -0600
From: "Dan Hubbell"
Subject: [ntcp] Fw: Response

Just wanted to keep you abreast with what our Lord is doing among us
these days for which we give Him all the glory.

Dan Hubbell
His servant
From "a hired house" in Winnsboro, Texas USA
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Hubbell
To: Martins
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Response
Thank you for letting us know of your travel plans to visit our area
during the week of November 18(Sunday)through 24(Saturday). We would be
delighted to have you visit us.

What type of "meeting" do you have in mind? We have a variety of
gatherings of the Body of Christ here in the Winnsboro area to which you
would be most welcome.

1)We have home gatherings from house to house which are not necessarily
scheduled meetings but meet as the Lord's "gathers" two or three(or
more)where He is in the midst according to His promise.

2)We have city-wide gatherings of the Church in Winnsboro which includes
all the Body of Christ in our town. There is a monthly gathering for
pray at our city auditorium and a quarterly praise gathering also in our
city auditorium. During the month of November both of these meetings
are being combined with our Thanksgiving gathering on Monday night of
November 19 at the First Presbyterian "meeting house" with the minister
of the First Assembly bringing the message. Our local Substance Abuse
Prison Chapel Choir will in charge of the music.

3)We have prayer gatherings of men from a five county-wide area each
Monday at noon lunch where approximately 50+ attend.

4)We have a weekly Tuesday prayer gathering of the elders of our city
where 6 to 12 leaders prayer for our world, nation, city and the Body of
Christ in Winnsboro.

5)On Sundays those of us who "meet from house to house" participate in
the worship gatherings of the various assemblies throughout the city.
Rotating as the Spirit leads with those who gather in various meeting
locations, i.e. Methodist, Baptist, Episcopal, Assembly, etc. This is
to encourage the spiritual unity of the Body of Christ.

6)On Sundays several of our city elders exchange pulpits and minister in
various assemblies. Also those of us who meet from "house to house"
minister in plurality with the leaders of the various assemblies. We
have participated in preaching, teaching, Lord's Supper observance,
Invitation Counseling, etc.

Let us know which of the above ministries you would be interested in and
we will make arrangements for you to participate. It would be most
helpful if you would let us know more about yourselves and your
particular interests in coming to the Winnsboro area.

Again, we look forward to having you in the Winnsboro area.

Love in Christ,

Dan Hubbell

------- <><><> -------

Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:59:03 -0800
From: jferris
Subject: Re: [ntcp] 'Religion' is not a dirty word

David Anderson wrote:

>And thanks for this excellent and unusual post, one of a just a few
>received over a several year period in which the word "religion" wasn't
>employed as a filthy cuss word.
>Unless we have the authority to create new meanings for old words, then I
>guess we are just stuck with these two - religion and religious.
>Religion, in the minds of misinformed persons, has become synonymous with
>-false- religion, religiosity, formality, etc.

Dear David,

One thing that is fairly clear, even to the "misinformed" is that unless
we begin to major in love, rather than words and ritual, we are going to
continue to lose ground to the cousins.

The problem with ritual is that we can deceive ourselves that we are
doing all right with it, but there is no kidding around with love. When
we set out to love, we very quickly discover how desperately we need Christ.

Yours in Him,


------- <><><> -------

Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:11:25 +0700
From: "Link"
Subject: [ntcp] Oops

That 'Re:' message I sent yesterday was supposed to be an email response to Nate
Krupp. I got an email from him addressed to New Testament Church Proliferation, but it was just in my
mailbox. I guess I should have checked the headers before sending it. If you
change the 'To' line on a reply, some of these programs send it to the original
recipient, too. Sorry about that.


End of New Testament Church Proliferation Digest V1 #84


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