New Testament Church Proliferation Digest


Spreading the Gospel via House Churches



New Testament Church Proliferation Digest Saturday, January 5 2002 Vol 02 : 004
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?- response to J. Rutz
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?- response to Link
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it? - reply to Jay
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it? [from Link]
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?
[NTCP] Greetings
[NTCP] Correction from Jim Rutz
[NTCP] Mentoring - I'm glad it's being discussed.
[NTCP] Mentoring
[NTCP] Mentoring
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring
Re: [NTCP] Mentoring

Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:22:34 -0800
From: jferris
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?

JAMESRUTZ wrote:

>My friend Dr. Cornell Haan has the stupendous responsibility of coordinating
>all 60 of the networks in Mission America, the most massive coalition in
>Protestant history. His heart is also deeply attached to the house church
>model and process even though he's into the institutional church ten feet
>over his head. Altogether, he's probably got his fingers into more varied
>outreach networks, church, paras, etc., than any three of us put together.
>And last year, in discussing mentoring with me, he simply shook his head and
>said quietly, "It's passe." He explained that everywhere he went, Christian
>leaders have been forced to admit that it's way too slow now--as a DOMINANT
>methodology.
>
>While I deeply treasure the many moments of personal attention I got from
>leaders as a spiritual pup, the Spirit is rapidly gearing us up for the
>swelling revival with its larger numbers.

TSUNAMI

As I continue to watch developments and teaching in the restoration of the
Church, I have a growing impression that a tsunami of deception is coming upon
the Church. The key word here is, "tsunami".

Webster puts it this way:

"Tsunami... a huge sea wave caused by a submarine disturbance, as an earthquake
or volcanic eruption; popularly, but inaccurately, called a tidal wave.."

The fullness of the times can, and is being spoken of in many ways, and viewed
from many perspectives. Looked at from the perspective of the Second Coming of
Christ, there is an emphasis on the things that are necessary for the
preparation for His coming again. A major focus is on the Elijah ministry, the
"forerunner ministry".

John the Baptist was understood to be the fulfillment of at least part of this
ministry, but according to the Old Testament prophecies and expectation, there
was to be more to it than the ministry of John, just as there was to be more to
it than the first coming of Jesus.

When asked about His second coming, Jesus first concern was that his disciples
not be deceived. With this as His first concern, it can be expected then, that
there will be great deception in connection with the second coming, and the
preparation for that coming.

Paul explained that "counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders" would be part of
that deception. But the "counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders"* of the
antichrist will not spring full blown on the scene with the revelation of the
man of sin. They will be normal to a wave, or movement prior to and in
preparation for his revelation. This is to say, that the antichrist will come
riding the crest of the deception which has preceded him. In short, like the
Lord, the antichrist will come in and on a great cloud of witnesses. In the
case of antichrist, error will be mixed in with truth, and in ways which are
very difficult to detect.**

Because Satan is a counterfeiter, there are several things that are clear, the
movement or tsunami will be "charismatic", apostolic, prophetic, authoritative,
and massive.***

To clarify, and identify the counterfeit by paraphrasing current teaching or
emphasis, which may well be true, "before the antichrist comes, for his people,
he will come, in his people."

An important, if not the central theme of the preparation for Jesus first
coming was, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." When the religious
leaders came out to see what John was doing, his question to them was, "O
generation of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come. Bring
forth therefore fruits meet for repentance."

Of great concern is that this dimension of repentance seems to be missing from
the present "forerunner" ministry. The man handling of the saints which has
been going on now for centuries, to date, has been left in tact. In the current
restoration or reformation, there seems to be no felt need to "repent of the
work of our own hands".****

This man made scaffolding, so long in place, appears to be needed as a
platform, by those intent on renovation and restoration. These structures and
methods, the work of man's hands, supply the financial support, as well as the
stage for the tsunami. Calling it to repentance is bad for the restoration
business. Those who are involved in the counterfeit "restoration" have
apparently chosen to leave it all intact until the one comes whose right it is
to rule over all of this. Then in one hour*****, all the staging can be taken
out of the way so that he who claims to be unshakable****** will be all that
remains and be seen.

*2 Thessalonians 2:7-12, ** Matthew 24:24, *** Revelation 13, **** Revelation
9:20, ***** Revelation 17:12--17, ******Isaiah 14:13,14, Revelation 18:7

Perhaps if God new there was a faster way, He would have thought twice about
beginning with one man, Acts 17:26

Jay


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 08:03:22 -0500
From: "Samuel Buick"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?

Hi List:

From: Link
>
>So one of the reasons I don't mind the term 'mentoring' even though it isn't
>from the Bible, per se, is because it serves as a substitute for >a too-narrow
>definition of 'discipleship,' imo. Using 'discipleship' to refer to only
>one-on-one work, imo, reinforces an unbiblical concept. Maybe the use of
>'mentoring' will allow for a broader, more Biblical, >use of the term
>'discipleship.'

I have a real problem with the term 'mentor', for in reality we cannot
'imitate' another by following their example. We called to be 'partakers' in
and of Christ, not imitators of him. Where Paul called on others to imitate
him, what he was calling them into was to imitate his passion to pursue Christ
and abandon all else for the sake of dying to self and living in Christ.

Mentoring denotes having another model for you and you follow what they do. I
don't see that anywhere other than in the actual ministry activities. Jesus
modeled his ministry activity and the disciples watched, and then they did
ministry activity after what Jesus had modeled for them. It is learned
behavior. What is needed is not more learning behaviour on "what to do" but
FATHERING. We need spiritual fathers.

The Holy Spirit caused the seed in Mary to grow to the point of birth. In the
entire ministry of Jesus, the Holy Spirit sustained His ministry and life. The
FATHERING, if it was modeled at all, was that Jesus went away to be with His
Father and to commune with Him. We have the same opportunity, since Jesus is
the Head, and we are His Body, and you cannot divorce the Head from the Body,
wherever Jesus is, we are, therefore, we too can break away from all activity,
and spend time with the Father, and be fathered and cared for. What is poured
into our lives when we are being fathered, needs to be poured back out into the
lives of others.

The call, and it is a radical call is to a life of transparency and realness.
Jesus was and is a very real and transparent person. He was fathered that way.
We need to be the same. One way of being that way is in entering very real
and intimate relationships with people who will subject themselves one to
another, and allow others to speak into there lives and allow the Father to
pour out His love and His grace in those who desire this intimacy. This is
what Bonhoeffer did in the Bruderrat (Brotherhood). There was great intimacy
within the Brotherhood, and in humility they subjected themselves to one
another and spoke into each others lives. It was a very young pastor who
became essentially the confessor of Bonhoeffer, and they became quite close,
and they saw the love of the Father knit their hearts to the Lord and to one
another in powerful ways. Was it mentoring? No, it was the intimacy that you
have in a familial relationship, between siblings and a father.

>Secondly, I don't know that 'father' should be used so widely, >especially in
>cases where a man is not truly a spiritual father.

This could be argued in my own experience. My father was used by the Lord to
bring me to saving knowledge of the Lord and the Gospel. He was a pastor, a
very successful pastor, and he was a lousy father! My father was abandoned
during WW2 when his mother left his father, and she died as a nurse on a
hospital ship in the Irish Sea when their ship was sunk by a U Boat. His dad
became a mechanic in the Royal Tank Regiment and left home for 7 years. During
the blitz over N. Ireland, he was moved around the coastline from home to home
that took kids out of Belfast. He was in a dozen homes in over two and half
years of the war. He was abused and neglected. He was 6 when the war began,
and he was 14 when he saw his father again. During those years he was not
parented or fathered well. All of this affected how he fathered his own
children. I could easily use a lot of excuses to not use the term fathering,
but I won't. I need fathering as much as the next guy.

I have been blessed with men who through their own brokenness and openness with
me have spoken in my life and encouraged and strengthened me. The
institutional church would look upon them as 'lay men', but they are not 'lay
men', they are FATHERS and PRIESTS. We seek to come apart and seek the Lord
and sit at His feet. We spend time in the secret place, and we share what the
Lord is doing in us and how it is affecting our lives and relationships with
our families. We weep together and we laugh together. I realize that in
spending my life with these men, that I love these men and they love me. They
love to go into deeper intimate relationship, where few dare to go. We are
transparent, and we speak into one another's lives and we welcome one another
as brothers. This to me is NOT mentoring, but it is fathering. Some of these
men have fathered large families (in the natural), and it has been amazing how
the Lord has taught them where they went wrong in raising their kids, and how
spiritually they need to deal with those issues. In the spirit, they have
learned from the Father, how to be a caring and giving and forgiving father
through deep intimacy with the Father, and through dying to self and living in
Christ.
>
>No matter what we think of the term 'mentor,' the concept of a more mature
>person teaching and nurturing a younger person in the faith is a very Biblical
>concept. Can we all agree on this?

I would rather abandon the term mentor altogether, and stick to fathering, as
what we need in our day are those who are fathered by the Father, and who are
mutually subject one to another and live deep intimate and transparent lives.
But, to a large degree this is not happening, simply because it is too on the
edge for many N. Americans, and it jives against our 'independent' tendencies.
We have no idea what a dependent intimate relationship is because it smacks
against how we are raised in our culture. I think sadly, that our culture has
weakened the church at large with this 'independent' mindset.

Blessings,
Sam


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 08:11:13 -0500
From: "Samuel Buick"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?- response to J. Rutz

Dear James:

Thanks for your post.

I do believe very much in what you have said. What I do distinguish however is
that more than ever the relationships and intimacy that we have within the
Body, and with the Lord by His Spirit is where much of the 'fathering' has to
take place. For too long we have been looking to the 'leaders' when we should
be looking to the Father and to one another in mutually intimate and edifying
relationships. Let's release all within the body to be priests to the Lord and
to serve and minister to one another. Fathering takes place in deep
transparency and deep intimacy first with the Lord, and with the close intimate
relationships we have with one another (same gender relationships).

We cannot hurry along fathering and we cannot bipass it either. If we are not
careful to maintain a fathering relationship, many of us will keep 'going
around the mountain' concerning certain issues in life, rather than moving
through them to the other side. We need fathering, no matter how fast the
Spirit is working in the earth and bringing revival and harvest, and that is
why the Body must become fully intimate and functioning as a family.

Sammy Buick


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 08:16:49 -0500
From: "Samuel Buick"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?- response to Link

Hi Link and List;

Link said;
>In a house church situation, if the more mature believers are aware of the
>need to disciple the younger believers, and the meetings leave a lot of time
>for sharing and fellowship, a lot of this kind of stuff can happen in the
>meetings, over a plate of meatloaf. And people can get in touch with each
>other to meet with each other outside of meetings as well.

Right on Link! This is actually happening all the time in our house church
network. We are seeing fathering and mothering taking place in intimate family
situations as you describe, but it only goes to a certain level. The real
fathering is in much deeper intimacy with the Father and one another where
transparency is the key. To have a certain amount of fathering over a plate of
meatloaf, well, you will not go far. But all in all, a lot of our people are
discovering almost for the first time what it is to be in a familial situation
where people actually care for them and pour out their lives and their love on
them. This to me is a stepping stone toward real fathering.

Sammy


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 08:41:06 -0500
From: "Samuel Buick"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it? - reply to Jay

Hi there Jay;

Thanks for your email.

Being charismatic and all that, I find the restoration movement you speak of to
be a great concern to me personally. I find myself gagging on how people like
C. Peter Wagner, and all these others who have gathered around them, networking
this whole 'apostolic' and 'prophetic' restoration really disturbing. All of
it smacks of what you call 'human scafolding'. It really bothers me how we as
men always have to 'touch' the ark, and steady it for fear of it falling (as in
Uzza and the Ark of the covenant being taken into Jerusalem by David). Uzza
was of the Levitical order that carried the poles for the ark, and here he is
steadying the ark on an ox cart!! God had ordained carrying the ark a certain
way for a reason, and Uzza violated what God had ordained, and he paid with
his life! He was arrogant enough to presume he could help God out by steadying
the ark with his own hand! The new apostolic networking taking shape today
bears no resemblance to the apostolic ministry of the NT church! Here again,
we as men, have dared to touch the ark, and we will pay a price for violating
the ministry of apostles the way He ordained it! I fear for the wider Body of
Christ when I see such presumption and arrogance amongst what has already
become the "apostolic superstars"! May God have mercy upon us for violating
what He has ordained.

Blessings, and thanks for your post.

Sam


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:17:02
From: "David Jaggernauth"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?

Sam said:

"What is needed is not more learning behaviour on "what to do" but FATHERING.
We need spiritual fathers."

I agree with the above statement. I also disagree with the statement that
Paul's fatherhood to believers came as a result of his birthing them into the
kingdom. There are many people in the world today who make children but are not
fathers to them. fatherhood speaks of relationship not reproduction.

When the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray he started by saying "Our
father" It is the first time that God was addressed in prayer as father in the
bible. It was Jesus ushering in a new dimension of relationship with God
hitherto unknown by the jews. He was making a statement that thru Him we have
become sons of God and have a right to entering into intimate relationship with
him.

God our father, intimacy with our father in heaven. we now have a father son
relationship with God. When i teach on prayer, I have discovered that people
who have the most difficulty praying are those that had lousy realtionships
with their natural fathers. If you cannot relate to a natural father you are
going to have a hell of a difficult time relating to a father in heaven who you
cannot see. There are many believers out there who because of their poor
relationships with their fathers are not able to rise the levels God is calling
them onto. I see many leaders in the body calling themselves fathers who havent
been properly fathered and are messing up peoples lives.

One of the first things that has to be done is to minister deliverance from
hurts and bitterness from past experience with earthly fathers. I understand
why Paul said we dont have many fathers, it is the same today as it was back
then. Satan is busy destroying the family unit and emasculating men. women are
now taking on the role of fathers in the home because men in the natural are
not fathered.

David Jaggernauth


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:22:38 +0100
From:
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how
biblical is it? [from Link]

Can we all agree on this

Link

Yup! Keith


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 13:46:36 -0500
From: "Samuel Buick"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring - how biblical is it?

Well said David, "BRAVO!"

Sam


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:14:15 -0700
From: "David Cummings"
Subject: [NTCP]
Greetings

Greetings,

I have interested in your New Testament Church Proliferation List for a long time
and was encouraged at one point by Link Hudson to join but I didn't have the
time to devote to another list. I have since stopped posting at other sites and
hope to bring a fresh breeze to this list in whatever fashion God leads me to.

My name is David Cummings and I am a New Testament Church Planter in a college
town.

I am 21 years old. I am currently active in mission supported by Missions
America (The Lighthouse Movement) and will begin implementing college aged
"lighthouses" on the Campus.

I am also active in planting a network of house churches in the Greater Metro
Area that I am near.

I am looking for active ways to get people in the community involved in the
house church format and the lighthouse movement is one of tools that i believe
will be useful.

God bless you all, David

David Cummings www.thechurch.uni.cc


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:01:03 EST
From: JAMESRUTZ
Subject: [NTCP] Correction from Jim Rutz

WOOPS!

Sorry, the Wesley's mom was Susanna, not Joanna. And eight of her 19 children
died in infancy.

I plead brain fog.

Jim Rutz Colorado Springs


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:26:55 -0800
From: "George Patterson"
Subject: [NTCP]
Mentoring - I'm glad it's being discussed.

Mentoring has been my main ministry for 35 years. In Honduras we called it
"pastoral training by extension" and tried to do it the same way Jesus and Paul did. In the States we first called it "discipling on the leader level" but many confused it with "one on one" (Jesus mentored12, sometimes 3, sometimes 1) or merely teaching doctrine to new believers. So when the word 'mentoring' became common we started using it. Be careful translating it into Latin-based languages--a mentor is a liar!

George Patterson


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:14:40 -0800
From: "NIELSON"
Subject: [NTCP] Mentoring

I like what Jeff posted.

It seems to me when we get in to mentoring others we have a tendency to have
people follow us more or less. I believe that is also how denominations
started. Most of them are following the teaching of a man. We are to take
people to Jesus and convince them to follow Him. The HS will teach them if they
are interested in following after Jesus. Even the Pharisees recognized the
diciples having been with Jesus.

Paul is talking about savage wolfs distorting the truth in order to draw
diciples after themselves.(Acts 20:29,30) I see many not necessarily distorting
the truth but over emphasizing one aspect of the truth and thereby drawing
followers after themselves.

How do we do this?

I believe we need to follow and walk with Jesus to such an extent that those
who are being mentored by us will only see Jesus.--I am still working on that-


------- <><><> -------



Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:14:40 -0800
From: "NIELSON"
Subject: [NTCP] Mentoring

I like what Jeff posted. It seems to me when we get in to mentoring others we
have a tendency to have people follow us more or less. I believe that is also
how denominations started. Most of them are following the teaching of a man. We are to take people to Jesus and convince them to follow Him. The HS will teach them if they are interested in following after Jesus. Even the Pharisees
recognized the diciples having been with Jesus.

Paul is talking about savage wolfs distorting the truth in order to draw
diciples after themselves.(Acts 20:29,30) I see many not necessarily distorting
the truth but over emphasizing one aspect of the truth and thereby drawing
followers after themselves.

How do we do this?

I believe we need to follow and walk with Jesus to such an extent that those
who are being mentored by us will only see Jesus.--I am still working on that-


------- <><><> -------



Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 12:45:53 +0100
From:
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring

My beef with mentoring as I have seen it (mainly through my mad friend here),
is that many of those in the "mentoring movement" that I have seen, haven't got
their own act together yet and are passing on a flawed model. Some go out
seeking "spiritual children", to pass on thier own oddball ideas.

blessings Keith


------- <><><> -------



Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 07:49:19 -0800
From: jferris
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Mentoring

castillofuerte(--AT--)airtel.net wrote:

>My beef with mentoring as I have seen it (mainly through my mad friend here),
>is that many of those in the "mentoring movement" that I have seen, haven't
>got their own act together yet and are passing on a flawed model. Some go out
>seeking "spiritual children", to pass on thier own oddball ideas.

Dear Keith,

We still need to come to grips with Paul's relationship to Timothy. It was
rare. As Pauls said, "I have no one like Timothy...", but it was, and seems to
have the endorsement of the Scripture. We either need to dismiss Paul's
experience of relationship as being unique, and not to be repeated or seriously
consider the possibility that such relationshps are in the Heart of our
Heavenly Father for others, even ourselves.

"For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and
faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be
in Christ, as I teach every where in every church." I Corinthians 4:17

Presumably, Paul was not a "flawed model". A real test is, Is this person
leading their "children" into the body of Christ or out of the body of Christ?
This is a test which can be applied to all leadership. The fractured Body of
Christ is some evidence that there are not many who are passing the test. "...
high places at the head of every way..."

Jay

End of New Testament Church Planting Digest V2 #4

< Previous Digest Next Digest >




house church eldership servanthood lord's day lord's supper world missions