New Testament Church Proliferation Digest

 

Spreading the Gospel via House Churches

 


New Testament Church Proliferation Digest Thursday, January 10 2002 Vol 02 : 008
Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?
[NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?
Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?
Re: [NTCP]...UNITY? - Your questions about AVC -
Re: [NTCP] ...UNITY? - questions about Vineyard and Wimber
Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?
Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?
Re: [NTCP] ...UNITY? - questions about Vineyard and Wimber
[NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?

Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 22:43:37 EST
From: TheologusCrucis
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?

Sam,

I served in a church in KS that was Vineyard in by association but were not
officially joined to the movement. They were in the orbit of the KC Vineyard,
and I lasted about two years before their restoration beliefs and my stunned
disagreement led to a "mutual" parting of the ways!

However, I am intrigued -- I've never heard of a Vineyard church that embraced
any type of Reformed theology! Is this the same Vineyard of John Wimber and
company?

Please feel free to send out as many feelers as you would want to! I'd
appreciate any type information I could get....

Blessings, Sam.

TC


------- <><><> -------

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 05:57:29 EST
From: Steffasong
Subject: [NTCP] Upon what
do we base our UNITY?

In a message dated 01/08/2002 10:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
TheologusCrucis writes:
>However, I am intrigued -- I've never heard of a Vineyard church that embraced
>any type of Reformed theology! Is this the same Vineyard of John Wimber and
>company?

Could you explain what you mean here, please? Thanks, Stephanie Bennett


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:20:57 +0200
From: "Deborah"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Upon
what do we base our UNITY?

Sammy, I'm glad your joint-gathering went so well! And I'm very happy your
house church network and that other congregation worshipped God together in
such openness through Christ. I agree with you that our relationship with the
Lord should be the basis of our unity. I will continue to distinguish between
what God can accomplish through unfortunate division (good) and actual division
itself (bad), but your point about unity of relationship (Joh. 17) is well
taken. This is what can bind the institutional church and house church
together even when we may differ on ecclesiology. May we each put into
practice what we have been discussing on this thread. To the glory of God and
His Christ! Thanks to Dave J. for drawing our minds and hearts into such a
profitable topic.

Michael
Jerusalem


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:18:57 -0500
From: "Samuel Buick"
Subject: Re: [NTCP]...UNITY? - Your questions about AVC -

Hi TC:

BTW, I "feel" a closer tie to you than ever. Thanks for your encouragement and
dialogue. You have been a blessing to me :-) BTW, I live in Southern Ontario,
in Canada. I was in a Vineyard in Kitchener, Ontario, not far from the TORONTO
BLESSING.

There have been some very Calvinist influences in the Vineyard movement from
John Wimber, who was from a Calvinist Quakerism, and Dr. Don Williams who was
Presbyterian, and Dr. Wayne Grudem who was and still is a Reformed Baptist
(turned Reformed Charismatic!) from Trinity Seminary in Deerfield, IL., and Dr.
Jack Deere, former seminary professor at Dallas Theological Seminary. All have
had a strong Calvinist bent that has been highly influenced by the 'Kingdom
Theology' of G.E. Ladd, and the rise of the Charismatic movement in the late
1960's and early 1970's.

I am personally deeply indebted to the Vineyard movement. I would not be the
person I am today without the influence of these godly men in my life through
their witness, testimonies, personal dialogue and discussion, especially over
theological issues. I emailed and dialogued with some of these men as well as
many other Vineyard leaders from Europe, Africa, Canada, and the US. They were
a blessing to me.

My reasons for leaving the Vineyard were personal and had to do with having a
radical experience in the Holy Spirit that directed me to pack it in. The
Vineyard I was a part of, was very much an institutional church , and at that
time I was very much into it, but my own encounter with the Lord changed all
that. I rejoice that the Vineyard movement as a whole is open to whatever
methodologies the Lord is revealing to the Body of Christ, and that they have
embraced the house church movement as one way of extending the Kingdom in the
earth. As such, I am thankful for the Vineyard for embracing ALL the Lord is
doing. I pray that the Lord will continue to move through the Vineyard and
continue to reveal His will and direction for them and those who come into
relationship with them.

1. AVC STATEMENT OF FAITH:

Here is the current statement of faith (revised in Sept. 1999, after I
left...isn't that ironic!).


2. Vineyard Theological & Philosophical Statements:

TC, this is the link that you will get a handle on what makes the Vineyard
movement "tick" theologically and philosophically.


3. Vineyard Genetic Code:

And of course here are the core values that describe the essence of the
'genetic' code of what a Vineyard feels and looks like.


OK, TC, this is it for now, but let me work on some things and I will dialogue
with you off the list. You can email me with where you are in MA.

TC, thanks for being who you are!

Blessings,

Sam

>
From: TheologusCrucis Reply-To: ntcp(--AT--)homechurch.org To:
>ntcp(--AT--)homechurch.org
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?
>Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 22:43:37 EST
>
>Sam,
>
>I served in a church in KS that was Vineyard in by association but were not
>officially joined to the movement. They were in the orbit of the KC Vineyard,
>and I lasted about two years before their restoration beliefs and my stunned
>disagreement led to a "mutual" parting of the ways!
>
>However, I am intrigued -- I've never heard of a Vineyard church that embraced
>any type of Reformed theology! Is this the same Vineyard of John Wimber and
>company?
>
>Please feel free to send out as many feelers as you would want to! I'd
>appreciate any type information I could get....
>
>Blessings, Sam.
>
>TC


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:32:55 -0500
From: "Samuel Buick"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] ...UNITY? - questions about Vineyard and Wimber

>In a message dated 01/08/2002 10:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>TheologusCrucis writes:
>
>
>>However, I am intrigued -- I've never heard of a Vineyard church that
>>embraced any type of Reformed theology! Is this the same Vineyard of
>John
>>Wimber and company?

Yes, it is the very same John Wimber and Vineyard. Their statement of faith,
is very Reformed and Charismatic. The writers, McClure and Williams among
others, are Reformed in their doctrines of grace, the 5 Points, etc..

I think your surprise is to be more found in that each Vineyard in church
polity is independent and are in relationship with a set of values more than
anything else. Each Vineyard can look and feel anyway they see the Lord
leading them, and many of its leaders are all first generation Vineyard people
who have come from other influences such as Pentecostal, Holiness, Quakerism,
Evangelical mainstream, Baptist, Congregationalist, Charismatic...you name it
and you will likely find it. More and more of the leaders coming out now, the
twenty-somethings have been the product of the Vineyard, and as such they are
the second generation, and the second generation generally strikes out to be
different thant the first. It is a very interesting time for the Vineyard
movement, especially the changes since Wimber died in Novemeber of 1997.

Blessings,

Sam
>
>Could you explain what you mean here, please? Thanks, Stephanie Bennett


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:35:34 -0800
From: jferris
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?

TheologusCrucis wrote:

>Well, believe me when I say I do not use an alias here where I live to the
>people I am trying to reach. I notice Paul wasn't real quick to identify
>himself when he was in Jerusalem, and wasn't adverse to retreat in a basket
>over a wall at night as the better part of valor!

Dear TC

Believe me, I have nothing against going over the wall in a basket when the
situation gets new creation life threatening.

>I've been perfected over the last 12 years thru those type of wounds as much
>as I want to be, thank you very much. If I can spare myself and my wife, who
>has had deep wounds from "the house of our friends," then I will.

This one is a bit more problematic. Unfortunately the wounds don't seem to be a
one time event. They seem rather to be part of a progressive process. Something
about being perfect in Christ, going from glory to glory, which being
interpreted means, going from gory to gory.

Paul's testimony at the end of his race is certainly one to make you think
twice before signing up for this spiritual olympics.

As for your wife, she has my fondest empathy. My experience has been that wives
get the worst of it, very little of the glory and recognition, and often end up
taking more hits than their pastor/husbands. In addition, they tend to be the
loneliest people in the world. Their husbands are usually their biggest
problem, and they have no one to talk to about it without putting his pastoral
ministry at risk.

"...Because iniquity abounds the love of most will grow cold.." This abounding
iniquity will continue to worsen all the way to the end, and the Church is
certainly not exempt from the wounds that result. "But he who 'continues to
love' to the end will be saved, and this gospel of the kingdom will...." That's
the real secret, isn't it, the more abounding grace which makes lovers out of
us. I don't think we are going to be able to avoid the wounds without
abandoning ship, (I'm not speaking about the institutional ship.) so the best
we can do is, "encourage one another, and so much the more as we see the day
approaching."

Yours in Christ,

Jay


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:11:16 EST
From: TheologusCrucis
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?


Stephanie,

You asked me after I had posted:
>However, I am intrigued -- I've never heard of a Vineyard church that embraced
>any type of Reformed theology! Is this the same Vineyard of John Wimber and
>company?

>>Could you explain what you mean here, please?Stephanie,

You asked me after I had posted:

However, I am intrigued -- I've never heard of a Vineyard church that embraced
any type of Reformed theology! Is this the same Vineyard of John Wimber and
company?

>>Could you explain what you mean here, please?

Hi, Stephanie! I've enjoyed your posts, and would be glad to explain.

I've always associated the Vineyard movement with the 2nd Great awakening as a
revivalist movement, a la the Airport Vineyard, thus linking it to the
assumptions of C. Finney -- and he was about as far away from the Reformation
as you can go.

Through personal experience, I've linked the Vineyard movement to
restorationism -- i.e., that the OT Temple represented church ages and a kind
of "map" to the end times. As taught in the Vineyard church that I served in,
it represented a genuinely original twist on classic Dispensational
eschatology.

And the concept of "power evangelism." I have always thought personally that
there were parallels with an old controversy (My grandfather's congregation was
very much affected) called the "Latter Rain" movement in the AG, and I thought
the Pentecostal response was very Biblical.

But I must admit that this is all I know! I returned Sam's e-mail after I got
off work late last night. He brought up some things that I did not know, and I
am going to hit the sites Sam included about the Vineyard tonight -- perhaps
what I learn will clarify some things. I'm always prepared to reconsider my
opinions after more info.

God's blessings to you, Stephanie!

TheologusCrucis


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:20:29 EST
From: TheologusCrucis
Subject: Re: [NTCP] ...UNITY? - questions about Vineyard and Wimber

Sam,

Thanks for the web sites! I am definitely going to check them out tonight.

One thing that has been on-going in the last decade has been the loss of young
AG ministers to the Vineyard movement. The average age now for an AG minister
is 45. Although I have never been one to hop on the youth bandwagon, (I think
one shouldn't be an elder unless one is) it is telling that so many has left.

Thanks again, Sam, and I will be getting back to you about this.

TC


------- <><><> -------


Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:49:00 EST
From: Steffasong
Subject: [NTCP] Upon what do we base our UNITY?

Hello TC, thank you for responding, and thank you for blessing me! I do receive
it! :-)

>From the start of your posting you reminded me greatly of a dear friend of
ours in the AG who recently left his post as senior pastor (after 30) years and
is now working in customer service in upstate NY. This man is so dear. He was
the brother who first laid hands on me when at 21 years old I graduated
college, and first commissioned me before the rest of the body to preach the
gospel, feed the lambs, and pour into the Body of Christ. He was the patient
one who listened to my youthful fervor concerning the inequities in the AG and
incompatible elements that existed between what I read in the Bible about Body
Life, and what we were actually (not) experiencing in the AG.

It was in the building and among the people that he cared for that I eventually
met my wonderful husband. For thirty years this preacher man stood fast in
attempt to be a light and do the work of the ministry, and finally,.... the
crushing walls of the system broke him.

He is strong in the Lord, but still without direction. Where is there to go,
what is there to do, when people who have given a lifetime to traditional
service no longer 'see it,' or no longer can cope with the vast emptiness of
misplaced headship? Perhaps one day in heaven I will tell you our story, -- how
the Lord broke the bonds of the system in our life, and how He wrought the
freedom in our lives to minister void of reputation and the opinions of man.

At present, I am very happy to be a part of a local Vineyard Fellowship here, -
-- It does not define me, but it is the field in which our Lord has placed
us. It is among a people who are not just open, but DEPENDENT upon God to show
the way, instead of form, ritual, and one slice of the theological pie. We can
work with that. :-)

All this to say, I am praying for you too, and I am trusting the Lord will
continue to give you the 'spirit of wisdom and revelation"....as you walk
through this challenging season of your life.

Blessings in the Lamb, Stephanie

In a message dated 01/09/2002 9:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
TheologusCrucis writes:
>Through personal experience, I've linked the Vineyard movement to
>restorationism -- i.e., that the OT Temple represented church ages and a kind
>of "map" to the end times. As taught in the Vineyard church that I served in,
>it represented a genuinely original twist on classic Dispensational
>eschatology.
>
>And the concept of "power evangelism." I have always thought personally that
>there were parallels with an old controversy (My grandfather's congregation
>was very much affected) called the "Latter Rain" movement in the AG, and I
>thought the Pentecostal response was very Biblical.
>
>But I must admit that this is all I know! I returned Sam's e-mail after I got
>off work late last night. He brought up some things that I did not know, and I
>am going to hit the sites Sam included about the Vineyard tonight -- perhaps
>what I learn will clarify some things. I'm always prepared to reconsider my
>opinions after more info.
>
>God's blessings to you, Stephanie!
>
>TheologusCrucis

Stephanie Bennett

Horizon Creative Services & Consulting Marketing Solutions for the 21st Century
http://members.aol.com/steffasong/index.html steffasong -

Hello TC, thank you for responding, and thank you for blessing me! I do receive
it! :-)

>From the start of your posting you reminded me greatly of a dear friend of
>ours in the AG who recently left his post as senior pastor (after 30) years
>and is now working in customer service in upstate NY. This man is so dear.
>He was the brother who first laid hands on me when at 21 years old I graduated
>college, and first commissioned me before the rest of the body to preach the
>gospel, feed the lambs, and pour into the Body of Christ. He was the patient
>one who listened to my youthful fervor concerning the inequities in the AG and
>incompatible elements that existed between what I read in the Bible about Body
>Life, and what we were actually (not) experiencing in the AG.

It was in the building and among the people that he cared for that I eventually
met my wonderful husband. For thirty years this preacher man stood fast in
attempt to be a light and do the work of the ministry, and finally,.... the
crushing walls of the system broke him.

He is strong in the Lord, but still without direction. Where is there to go,
what is there to do, when people who have given a lifetime to traditional
service no longer 'see it,' or no longer can cope with the vast emptiness of
misplaced headship? Perhaps one day in heaven I will tell you our story, -- how
the Lord broke the bonds of the system in our life, and how He wrought the
freedom in our lives to minister void of reputation and the opinions of man.

At present, I am very happy to be a part of a local Vineyard Fellowship here,
-- It does not define me, but it is the field in which our Lord has placed
us. It is among a people who are not just open, but DEPENDENT upon God to show
the way, instead of form, ritual, and one slice of the theological pie. We can
work with that. :-)

All this to say, I am praying for you too, and I am trusting the Lord will
continue to give you the 'spirit of wisdom and revelation"....as you walk
through this challenging season of your life.

Blessings in the Lamb, Stephanie

In a message dated 01/09/2002 9:12:21 AM Eastern Standard Time,
TheologusCrucis writes:

Through personal experience, I've linked the Vineyard movement to
restorationism -- i.e., that the OT Temple represented church ages and a kind
of "map" to the end times. As taught in the Vineyard church that I served in,
it represented a genuinely original twist on classic Dispensational
eschatology.

And the concept of "power evangelism." I have always thought personally that
there were parallels with an old controversy (My grandfather's congregation was
very much affected) called the "Latter Rain" movement in the AG, and I thought
the Pentecostal response was very Biblical.

But I must admit that this is all I know! I returned Sam's e-mail after I got
off work late last night. He brought up some things that I did not know, and I
am going to hit the sites Sam included about the Vineyard tonight -- perhaps
what I learn will clarify some things. I'm always prepared to reconsider my
opinions after more info.

God's blessings to you,
Stephanie!

Stephanie Bennett Horizon Creative Services &amp; Consulting Marketing
Solutions for the 21st Century http://members.aol.com/steffasong/index.html


End of New Testament Church Proliferation Digest V2 #8

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