New Testament Church Proliferation Digest Tuesday, March 26 2002 Vol 02 : 062Re: RE: [NTCP] Sexual Abuse and the Church?
RE: [NTCP] Query
Re: [NTCP] NTCP: RE Establishing the complete Lordship of Jesus
RE: [NTCP] Query
Re: [NTCP] NTCP: RE Establishing the complete Lordship of Jesus
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 17:01:24 +0100
Subject: Re: RE: [NTCP] Sexual Abuse and the Church?
Vanessa, What I wrote to David applies to you too. I suggest some liberating
prayer. Child abuse is used by the devil to enslave. and when we bring his
works into the light he always causes a rumpus to try to get us to shut up.
My prayers are with you both, If I can help e.mail me privately
keith in Spain
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Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:47:51 -0400
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Query
I have always thought of liturgy as something primitive: for cave men, and I
think so of makeup and fancy clothes, too.
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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 00:39:27 -0500
Subject: Re: [NTCP] NTCP:
RE Establishing the complete Lordship of Jesus
David Jaggernauth wrote:
>How can we truly establish Jesus's Lordship over the meeting so that He
>becomes more apparent than us, the ones who are speaking.
The timing of my reading your query to the list is very interesting for me. I
got all covered up, as they say in these parts, (The mountains of North
In the time frame that your email arrived, the following content has passed
over my keyboard. And the fruit of the things expressed has been remarkable. I
think it is consistent with what Keith has shared as well. Here it is, the best
I can reconstruct it.
I should say that whenever two or three get together "Christ is in the midst."
This is also true for leaders meetings. Two or three elders, and Christ is in
the midst. It is not a very big stretch to translate, "in the midst", as
"center stage". When there is only one elder, the elder himself is center
stage, and that is, and has been, a real problem.
A real concern that we have been addressing lately among area leaders is
"culture clash". This is perhaps one of the greatest enemies of revival. Either
by resistance or manipulation, this is a great source of the grieving of the
Holy Spirit, who is the nuclear reactor of revival. One aspect of
ecclesiastical culture clash is the format of Christian meetings.
For Evangelical America, all the other elements of the meeting have taken
second place to one man dominated preaching. The Scripture, on the other hand,
counsels, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any
thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace." I
What we need, and what I believe is in the heart of God is "the body He
desires..." What is lacking has been the revelation of "The Body". It has been
replaced by the vision or revelation of a man. I believe that this has been
very harmful, and has led to an ecclesiastical culture which is also very
dangerous; "See to it that no one deceives you..."
Because we only know in part, it is very important for the "parts" to be in
proper relationship and function one with another. There is still a superstar,
"stage center" mentality in the church, and, not only is it getting worse, but
puts us in great jeopardy.
We are in a season of the restoration of apostles and prophets, and so there is
an increasingly open door to their acceptance. The prophetic influence has
become so compelling, all things considered, that we are in danger of failing
to, "test them that say..."
All the while, it is a body that God is after, a body that is one new man,
fully functional with each part doing its work by that which every joint
supplies. This Body has been eclipsed, obliterated, and all but destroyed by
the man centered ecclesiastical culture of the past, and my concern is that
this present season doesn't leave it that way, only changing the men, and the
Finally, some further thoughts gleaned from close to 30 years of relational
Around two years ago, I had the following exchange with Doug Fortune of Trumpet
"Yesterday I received your article from TRUMPET CALL BULLETIN, about 8 pages
ending with "We are booked to go to many other nations. Now we see God rising
up a new crop of Apostles and Prophets. They are not seasoned, not sure who
they are. At the same time God is raising up mentors. Watch Paul train Timothy,
Titus and others. Think on these things..'
I was feeling a little feisty that afternoon, and so I wrote a brief but
cryptic note back, (Oh yes, the article was titled MENTORS AND A NEW DAY.
- -Paul didn't say to Timothy or Titus, "My true mentoree in the faith", he
said my "true son in the faith". There's a big difference between a father and
a mentor, the source, for one thing. The man handling goes on!
I seldom get a reply from Doug, but I received the following back:
From: Doug Fortune
Subject: Re: MENTORS & NEW DAY To: jferris
you wrote, "true son in the faith".... I do believe that is what Dr. bill meant
when he wrote the article... perhaps his semantics are not the same as what you
would use. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "man handling"... please
So, I did explain:
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain. In thinking about how I
might do this, what I might say which would be clear and succinct, I am forced
to admit that, not having had the opportunity to respond to that limited
question in the past, the many things that I have written on the subject are
not sufficiently focused to do justice to your question. Having said that I'll
save the rest for elaboration if it should be necessary, and I will try to send
you the fresh bread of today.
Foundational to an understanding of what I mean by "man handling" is the Truth
that Jesus is Lord. He is Lord of everything. I think that the most important
thing that He is Lord of, is relationship. Jesus is Lord of relationship. As
such, He is "the stone that the builders rejected", and continue to reject. The
builders are building something. We could say that what they are building is a
"man handled" building. They don't want the building that Jesus is building.
They want a different building, one where they are the architects, and the
contractors, and the inspectors, in short, one where they are in charge. 2
Psalms, but it's not just the nations that are raging, it is also the religious
builders. The religious builders, the "man handlers" do not want Jesus to be
Lord of relationship, because that is bad for their business.
If Jesus is allowed to be Lord of relationship, the relationships that he does
are likely to violate the relationships that we have done, and continue to do,
our institutions, our "churches", our parachurches, our corporations, our
ministries, and on and on.
God is after a new creation. The old one was no accident. it has much to teach
us about structure, authority, and how God does life. While God does not take
credit for the relationships that we see there, 1 John, "... children born, not
in the ordinary way, the old creation way, not of natural descent, nor of human
decision nor husband's will, but the new creation way, children born of God."
That's how God does life, by reproduction, only in the new creation it's not
man's idea any longer, it's God's idea, it's what God is doing. The problem is
that the "man handling" makes it very difficult to see what God is doing.
That's why He has promised to shake everything, so that what he has done, which
is to say, what does not shake may remain and be seen.
As an example let me cite the "Shepherding movement". In the beginning, I
believe that it was God who sovereignly knit those five men together. Their
testimony was shared with many. Over the years, the message changed however,
from what God had done, to what you ought to do. The abuse is, by now,
legendary. In fact I believe that the relational integrity of the Body of
Christ is now worse than it was before they had that revelation. Now we have
the Prophetic and Apostolic restoration movement, and I believe that it is
operating in such a way as to make the Shepherding movement seem like a boy
scout picnic by comparison. The "man handling" of the present movement is much
greater than anything I saw as a close observer of the Shepherding movement. In
all of this, the question remains, "What is God doing?"
The answer is that God creates with His Word, and nothing was created except by
His word. So much the more in the New Creation. God never said "Let there be
mentors." But He did write to "fathers", 1 John. To know about fathers, we
don't have to go to someone's idea of mentoring school, all we need do is take
a look at what God has created, to know about the invisible things of God. Not
to learn about Him in this way is to be without excuse.
In the new creation, fathers and sons/daughters, mothers and daughters/sons,
parents and children, are not our idea, not our choice, but His. What we need
is to see what He is doing, and walk in it. To do that, our expectations need
to be nailed to the tree where His were, on the day He showed us how much He
Jesus only had the ones that the Father gave Him. Under ideal circumstances the
number was limited to twelve in a three and a half year period. So who do we
think we are. God is looking for many sons, He is after the reality that is
only found in Christ, not the show business that is found in our "man
handling", Isaiah 64:6
There is too much ministry which sees people as somthing to do, rather than
someone to love. Once you've seen people as someone to love, you will go even
beyond discipleship, and begin to have Timothys or even Priscillas in your
life, true sons and daughters who are yours from God and, who love others with
their whole heart.
The price is very high, but, in my experience, it's worth it.
At least the Shepherding movement was named after a word that God had used.
Please God, deliver us from the Mentoring movement.
Yours in Christ,
The following email was written to a local pastor about 6 months earlier:
I haven't shared this with anyone else, in fact it is not even altogether
coherent in my own heart and mind yet, but I thought I might be able to give it
expression with you, in the hope that you might be able to understand, kind of,
woman to woman.
I could site a lot of Scripture as foundational to what I'm about to share, but
trusting that we are not at war, I would like to try to come at this thing
peacefully. In any case, a macho biker dude like yourself might just have to
fasten your seat belt.
In the letter to Nate, I talked about "the other words" of God. What God is
saying, but "in other words". Jesus shared with his disciples about their
having been made clean by the words that He had shared with them. Paul talks
about "the washing of water by the word". To come at people with Bible verses
is like coming at them with a sand blaster. It may be better than stoning, but
it is not as easy to take as washing with water. As I am beginning to
understand it, our responsibility, even hunger, in the Lord is to be so exposed
to the Scriptures, that they become liquid in our hearts, That they come out of
us "in other words", like a fountain of life, like a spring of living water,
like milk and honey, for others.
Romans 1 has us without excuse if we don't learn about our creator from what he
has made, and, in the first instance, what he has made is "male and female".
Two simple words, seemingly obvious on the face of it, but each containing a
package of information, even revelation, that the church has barely touched.
The Scriptures, however, draw on their content in many, and amazing ways.
That's what I want to do now, not so much an exposition of the Scripture but an
expression of my own feeling, understood in the light of the Biblical
John, I've been dry for a long time. I came to Golden Valley from an
environment where there were those who I had been feeding for many years.
Feeding at a deep and very intimate level. I wasn't here very long before, even
my milk dried up. I would like to share with you a little bit about that, you
know, just one mother to another. I never saw the process in this context
before, but recently my milk has come back in, and in such a copious amount
that I have been forced to finally understand some of the word pictures in the
I don't know how it was around your house, perhaps before your own children
were weened, you were not even in a position to notice, but in my house, when
the children were still nursing, the minute they let out the slightest cry to
be fed, Carleen would go off like a New York City fire boat. If I was in the
same room, and she was not covered, I would get wet. If she tried to take the
child to her breast too quickly, they would just about drown. Even after,
things would settle down some, there was need for periodic "burping".
If, in the midst of this wonderful early nurturing process, the babe is taken
away, perhaps due to a permanent loss, the first thing that happes is that the
breasts get engorged. Not properly relieved, this can be extremely painful. I'm
guessing this is what you might suffer, if something came between you and those
that you are feeding. But when everything is working right, a balance gets
established where the stimulation of milk production is just right for the
amount needed. As the babe matures, and there is none to take its place, the
milk finally dries up, and that phase of nurture is ended.
In and by the Spirit, we are heading into a land flowing with milk and honey,
some of that milk, by the grace of God, and the power of His Spirit, will be
flowing out of us, if The Lord is merciful, and we know He is.
Well, if that isn't enough to get me drummed out of the Valley, I don't know
what is. I Samuel 18:3,4
God Bless you today!
Yours in Christ,
Most recently, it struck me this way:
"A major problem with the present ecclesiastical culture is its one man
domination of the saints. The following is just one aspect of the problem.
When our children were young, I taught them the following table manners: "When
you sit down to eat, check to see how many are at the table, then check to see
how much food is available to eat, and don't take more than your share. If you
do someone will go hungry." The Table of the Lord is much the same. Jesus said,
"My meat is to the the will of Him who sent me." At least some of the content
of the Father's will was for Jesus to share the words that His Father had given
Him. This is to say that some of His meat was to share the content of his
But, that's the normal Christian life. All of us are called to do that. That is
the meat of all of us, one way or another. The problem is that one man
domination of the dinner table has caused the milk of the saints to dry up. The
people of God have been getting up starved from the table, and this has been
going on for centuries, almost for millennia.
My heart is to see the milk of the saints come in once again, and this can only
happen if we return to a 1 Corinthians 14 meeting culture. I believe that this
will restore mothers and fathers to the new creation of God, and in numbers
greater than that of the former house. much greater. The desolate women is
weeping for her children. The man handlers are devouring them."
Yours in Christ,
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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:48:47 +0200
Subject: RE: [NTCP] Query
>! Cor.14 should be taken in the context it was written, and not so tied to
>Jewish practices of the time, even though they certainly impacted early
I'm sorry, bro. But I don't follow your reasoning here. If "Jewish practices"
"*certainly* impacted early meetings," then that is at least *part* of "the
context [in which 1 Cor. 14] was written". Right? Not only that, but the first
Corinthian house church started next door to the city's synagogue (Act. 18:7),
with members gleaned from the Jewish leadership of that synagogue (Act. 18:8),
as well as other Jews from there, god-fearers from there, and then only later,
pagan Corinthians (Act. 18:7, 8). The man who converted them (Paul) was still
a "card carrying" Pharisee at the time (Act 23:6, note he uses the present
tense "am" ... some 10 years after his second missionary journey), who took a
Nazarite vow while there in Corinth the first time (Act. 18:18), and years
later paid for some men back in Jerusalem to offer sacrifices in the Temple
(Act 21: 23-26). So why, O why, my brother, would I assume that anyone suddenly
gave up "Jewish practices of the time"?
After saying all that, the point in my last post was still *not* to push
synagogue liturgy on gentile churches. Only to awaken us to the fact that our
Christian roots lie in that direction. And that the "orderl[iness]" (Gk.
TAXIS) required in Corinth (and of us!) in their meetings, and the liturgy
practiced in Antioch (Act. 14:2) -- both gentile hubs-- take as their examples
heaven itself. Therefore we must *not* assume that it is "NT" to have a
formless leaderless church gathering.
>Liturgy, as practised in most institutional churches, impedes rather than
>encourages, the free operation of the Spirit. It makes us feel secure through
>anticipated manifestations, but makes implementation of ! Cor. 14 unlikely.
While I agree with you in essence-- that *inflexibly programatic* church
liturgy makes it "unlikely" to "implement" a 1 Cor. 14 type church
gathering-- I'd also like to point out that in more recent years God
sovereignly chose to "manifest" and reintroduce the "institutional church "
denominations to CHARISMATA through it's most liturgical Protestant
expression-- the Anglican/Episcopalian branches of Christ's Body. What those
first churches who were open to the Charismatic renewal then did was to make
room in their normal liturgy for the exercising of spiritual gifts by everyone
so endowed. It is clear that this is also what happened with the early
followers of Jesus and the ancient liturgy of the Jewish synagogue. And this
is what I am suggesting for us today. Make room for CHARISMATA, make room for
liturgy. Both together were present in the NT, so why should we balk at the
one? ... unless we are merely biased without good reason. 1 Cor. 14 (save the
indictments) should be normal in every church, including the part about
"everything ... be[ing] done in a fitting and orderly way" (vs. 40).
David J. asked:
>I wonder exactly what did they preach from the old testament?? We focus mostly
>on the NT now in the Church today, but they were able to receive so much life
>from the OT back then.
They preached the *grace* of God through the life, death, resurrection, and
ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ. All from the OT. While here in Israel, I
share the gospel almost exclusively from the OT and yet the HS does the same
that He did back in the days of the Apostles. Confirms His word, sometimes with
signs and wonders. A recent example:
A couple of weeks back I took Matthew, my four-year-old son, to the park
nearest my apartment just to let him play a little since I had some garden work
to do at NETIVYAH (our Jerusalem congregation) later that morning. Well, when
we got to NETIVYAH the gate was closed and locked. Unusual for that time. I
have a gate key, but they have recently installed a sophisticated alarm system
for the inside and outside of the building, and I usually just go into the
garden to work when somebody else is there who knows better than me how to turn
that annoying thing off. So I knew we had to wait. "Can we go to the other
park?" asked Matthew. "But we were just at a park ...," I found myself whining.
Nevertheless I relented since we had not been to the park right near NETIVYAH
in a couple of months. And I had to wait anyway. As we came up to the gate of
the park (everything here has a fence around it), I saw Miriam, an orthodox
Jewish friend whom I had not seen in a couple of months, sitting alone on one
of the benches. She saw Matthew and I and at once signalled for me to come
over. "Wow," she said, "this is a NES (miracle) from HA-SHEM ("the Name"-- a
way of saying God); I was just praying for someone to talk to ... and I thought
Jews demand a sign (1 Cor. 1:22)! I too sent a prayer up to God. She went on
to speak of terrible injustices she had recently suffered from a couple of
orthodox Jewish men, both seeking to defraud her.
She wanted to know what I thought she should do. We have often talked about
the Lord and she knew that I would direct her to her God and His Bible for
answers. That is why she had wanted to speak with me. That is also why God
answered her prayer and had NETIVYAH's gates closed and Matthew wanting to go
to yet another park. So Miriam and I talked about justice. And we talked
about mercy. And-- to spare you all the details, and to save space-- we
somehow got onto the topic we had not picked up in almost two years: the
Holocaust. It all happened so naturally and I could sense the spiritual
pregnancy of the moment.
"Miriam, you remember that your God sent His people into exile for 70 years the
first time. It is written explicitly in the Torah (Law) that when they
violated the covenant and did not respond to correction, that "the land [would]
vomit" them out (Lev. 20:22). In gentile lands they would be persecuted.
Remember? The first exile was for 70 years, right? The second exile was for
over 2000 years ... and even now has not completely ended. Your people must
have done something terrible to tick HA-SHEM (God) off. What do you think that
was?" We talked about the ninth chapter of Daniel's prophecy, which calculates
when the Messiah was to come. Miriam had not read Daniel in eight years, she
said. But she was anxious to read it now. I told her, "You do the math. You
figure out who the Messiah was who was "cut off" (killed). I don't have to
tell you who I think it is". She shook her head knowingly. "But," I
continued, "the numbers will take you to about 30 C.E.-- certainly before the
second Temple was destroyed (70 C.E.). So if 'you-know-who' isn't the Messiah,
then there ain't no Messiah coming ...".
Miriam is an orthodox Jewish woman with a firm belief that the Messiah will one
day come. She was anxious to investigate the facts for herself. A divine
appointment accomplished. One that provided her with a sign. And not one time
did I need to use the NT.
The gospel existed before 325 A.D., when the NT canon was finalized. It existed
during the time of the Apostles. In the time of Jesus. In fact, it existed
before the Torah (Law) was given to Moses (Gal. 3:8). Grace wasn't invented
after Jesus arrived on the scene. It is in the very nature of God.
>Paul had a constant battle with judaizers in the Church and had to constantly
>fend off their attempts to enforce a Judaistic pattern of Christianity in the
>Church), hence the eventual trend toward the One man rule type Church.
You are right that Paul battled "Judaizers," but you seem to be less clear
about what that meant. Or means. The "Judaizers" Paul dealt with corrupted,
not a pristine church polity model, but the only *gospel* (Gal. 1:7). Their
legalism was deadly! Eternally so (Gal. 1:8, 9). It was in some sense the
substitution of something else in the place of Christ for salvation (Gal.
3:10), not the construction of a building, a mono-bishop, or liturgy. These
three items are not essential to salvation one way or the other. Trusting
Christ alone is!
Again bro David, I challenge the view that the Church jumped off a cliff as
soon as John died (c. 100 A.D.). Or before. The "lemming theory". No, there
has always been a remnant of faithful believers in Jesus since he first
gathered his disciples ... until now. The "gates of Hades" *never* has
prevailed against them (Mat. 16:18). And the Church was at her zenith at the
time that many house church folk think she was at her worst-- a lack on their
part, I think, of fairness and historical perspective.
Liturgy and legalism are not the same thing. Nor need they ever be related.
Hope this helps. Many blessings.
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Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:29:37
From: "David Jaggernauth"
Subject: Re: [NTCP] NTCP: RE Establishing the complete Lordship of Jesus
>Because we only know in part, it is very important for the "parts" to be in
>proper relationship and function one with another. There is still
>superstar, "stage center" mentality in the church, and, not only is it getting
>worse, but puts us in great jeopardy.
>We are in a season of the restoration of apostles and prophets, and so there
>is an increasingly open door to their acceptance. The prophetic influence has
>become so compelling, all things considered, that we are in danger of failing
>to, "test them that say..."
We had our meeting with our group of workers last night. One of the guys
brought a word which we believe very strongly comes to the body of Christ, The
The text of the scripture is Jeremiah 5:22-31,
Part of it says:
Jeremiah 5:26 For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he
that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men.
Jeremiah 5:27 As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit:
therefore they are become great, and waxen rich.
Jeremiah 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of
the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they
prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.
Jeremiah 5:29 Shall I not visit for these things? saith the LORD: shall not my
soul be avenged on such a nation as this?
Jeremiah 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their
means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end
My heart grieves when I see what is being done in the Church today. A famous
preacher from america came to our country last week to do some seminars. I dont
know if Link will allow me to call him by name...i guess it should be okay
because it was a public meeting. His name is Creflo Dollar.
I dont know what bible this man uses but I was looking at some notes that a
friend of mine made from his teaching and I am appalled at the kind of Gospel
that is being handed out to people. I am in the process of getting a full copy
of the notes and one of the tapes to make sure that what i heard was correct.
However, he said that the way to the anointing is through your money and the
only way to get the anointing is by giving up your money ( I am sure you know
who the money has to be given up to, the pastors, who dont seem to have to give
up any money to get the anointing)
On the last day, one of the local pastors went to the podium and told the
people he has just made his first million. He repeated it three times until
the people clapped. he then instructed the people that they were picking up an
offering (while Creflo was preaching before this point, people were coming up
and putting money in his pockets and in buckets in the aisle) This pastor said
it was his turn now and instructed them that those who want to give 1000.00
come up to the microphone and state the amount they were giving. Some people
who only had 100.00 had come up and he stopped them and said again that only
those with 500.00 or 1000.00 are to come up.
People were disgusted and began walking out.
The last part of the scripture is the saddest part for me, "and my people love
to have it so"
This has been my experience, when you try to bring truth to the people they
cannot receive it, they love things the way it is, they want a king and have
kings established over their lives much like Israel and Saul. I have become the
enemy to many people I knew previously. THey will not receive truth.
Creflo also shared a testimony about an experience he had. he said the leader
of the Klu Klux Klan had been publicly attacking him. He decided to invite him
over to his house. He then wen on to go through the details about how he
ushered the guy through his "big" gates, took him through his "large"
courtyard, through his big doors into his huge marbled floor mansion. He said
that after showing the guy all his roooms in his house and all his Rolls Royces
(12), the Guy falls on his knees, looks up to heaven and says, "Lord make me a
I told this story to illustrate a point ( I hope no one takes offense at what I
wrote but I am just quoting his words), when the story was being told to me I
thought the man was going to give his life to the Lord but instead, what he saw
when he looked at Creflo wasnt Jesus but a rich black man. He wanted wealth not
Jesus. The wealth appealed to his lust or greed not to the saving grace of
Jesus. Creflo was the point of focus, not Jesus.
This is what is happening to the Church right now, the truth of the Gospel has
been perverted to glorify mammon, money is being used to entice, and attract.
Sort of reminds me of when Satan appeared to Jesus and offered him all the
kingdoms (wealth) of the world.
There were many other things which were taught by Creflo that involved
misquoting, taking out of context and misinterperation of scripture.
Another incident of concern to me was a recent event that happened in Africa. I
am sure that many of you heard about the miracle that took place there. A man
that was embalmed came back to life. this happened during a Reinhardt Bonnke
meeting. When i checked the website to get the story, they told all the details
about the miracle, and said that the man who came back said God sent him back
with an important message for the Church. I began searching frantically for
this important message from God, only to discover that the message wasnt
available on the site, you have to send 35.00USD for the tape to hear it.
On the site they also made certain to mention that Reinhardt raised the man
from the dead, they didnt mention much about Jesus.
....."and my people love to have it so"......
Trinidad & Tobago
End of New Testament Church Proliferation Digest V2 #62
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