New Testament Church Proliferation Digest

 

Spreading the Gospel via House Churches

 


New Testament Church Proliferation Digest Sunday, May 26 2002 Vol 02 : 092
[NTCP] Doing Music in an open church
Re: [NTCP] Re: Gnostic tendencies
Re: [NTCP] Re: Gnostic tendencies
Re: [NTCP] Doing Music in an open church
Re: [NTCP] Doing Music in an open church

Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:09:49 -0400
From: "Link Hudson"
Subject: [NTCP] Doing Music in an open church

Michael Miller wrote:

>>I'd like to explore this idea that spontaneous spiritual a little
further. I know I have stepped on a few toes here and some of you are already
formulating a rebuttal. Send 'em in. But here is my real question: can a
scriptural case be made that God's Spirit leads the "flow" of a worship service
in the sense of abandoning it's structure? I'm sure you mean well, but this
sounds like an attempt to cheat God's >

Thank you, Dan, for the benefit of the doubt. ;) I would like to assure you
that my intent is quite the opposite: It is to edify God's people.

>That cheats God's people and it cheats God Himself from the union He desires
>to have with His redeemed and regenerated people.

Dan, could you please tell me how what I wrote would "cheat God's people and
God Himself?" The union God has with us is mediated, Dan, because if we ever
saw God "face to face" we'd be dust. There is only one mediator between God and
man, and of course you know and believe Him to be Christ. Christ is our High
Priest, and when we come before the Father it is always clothed in His
righteousness and not our own.

You further wrote:

>The Lord said: "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in
>spirit..." (John 4:24) . Worship in the Greek means to contact... even to

Somehow, Dan, I don't really think Christ had that in mind while speaking with
the woman at the well. In spirit and truth -- as regenerated people, as those
who had been spiritually dead and are now alive thru the power of the Holy
Spirit, the same Spirit that rose Christ from the dead. It is trust, not a
semi-romantic feeling, that justifies the sinner. Can this happen with great
emotion? Sure! Is that what it's all about? No.

>And Paul said: "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)

Yes, thru faith: hearing, understanding, and trust in the Message, and by the
gift of the Holy Spirit's presence. I'm just a dead man walking, and what life
I have I know isn't mine -- my life is hid in Christ, in His righteousness, His
holiness, His life. He came and killed me, and what He resurrected in my place
is His creation.

>And again "But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a
>mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from
>glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:18)

Yes, in comparing the OT with the NT. Context! We come, with mediation, into
the Holy of Holies in the heavenlies -- there is no more veil because that veil
is now Christ Himself. And as we become more and more like Him in
sanctification, we reflect Christ's glory, the attitude and character of Jesus.

>It is by God's people contacting Him that His economy is carried out.

Actually, Dan, it is by God finding us that His will is carried out. It's not
really about us, is it? I am confident that He will complete the work that He
has begun in me, as I am sure you believe He will do the same for you.

>So God's enemy takes a defamatory word like "Gnostic" and slaps it on a normal
>and necessary Christian practice (i.e. contacting God in a normal, real, and
>intimate way) in order to cheat God's people.... and to frustrate God's
>economy.

Really, this wasn't my intent. We live in a culture that is almost fully
Gnostic. Moby's new single is about how we are made out of stars. Everyone
knows that the soul was created innocent -- check out star wars, the American
Myth. The good kid turned into Darth simply because he let the desires of his
body, and the passions of his body, lead him into the Dark Side. It is the very
air we breathe, if we were raised in the US. institutional churches and house
church's are full of the language of the thereputic, and Jung (with Freud being
discredited at the moment) was a huge self proclaimed Gnostic!

>If we lack discernment we may take this lie. "Oh yeah, I shouldn't try to
>contact God. I don't want to be accused of being a "Gnostic". I better let
>someone else, some mediator, contact God for me."

A discipled Christian knows that he has been adopted, that thru Christ He is a
child of God. We hear from God thru the Scriptures, He hears from us thru
prayer. He/she knows that Christ is our mediator. and that water, wine, and
bread is central to the walk of faith, and not "walking in the garden while the
dew is still on the roses." A non-Christian isn't looking for God -- he/she is
in full flight.

>TC, I hope you wouldn't let the enemy cheat you or those you minister to.

I pray this as well, Dan, believe me. And I pray that in your ministry that the
enemy doesn't substitute the theology of the cross for the theology of glory.

>May the Lord guard us all.

AMEN! God's blessing to you, Dan. TC


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Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:19:52 EDT
From: TheologusCrucis

Subject: Re: [NTCP] Re: Gnostic tendencies

Dan,

Just read my post on the list. I have compuserve, and it's new to me. All the
caps and all the different spacings are me being ignorant of how to send e-mail
right! No "shouting" or anything else was meant! I hate computers!!!!!

TC


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Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 07:55:58 -0400
From: Richard Wright
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Doing Music in an open church

Good word, Link.

If one decides to accept the notion of a 'liturgical' model for church
meetings, then where exactly does the model come from? Where for example would
we find: opening hymn, opening prayer, announcements, special music, hymn,
sermon, closing hymn and closing prayer?

And if not this model, then which?

After studying this question for thirty years, I am persuaded to just take God
at His literal word.

Dick Phil. 3:12-14


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Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 08:11:55 -0400
From: jferris
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Doing
Music in an open church

Link Hudson wrote:

>I'm not sure which way of viewing prophecy is correct. I believe that people
>can speak as moved by the Holy Ghost during teaching the Bible as well as
>during the first person 'Thus saith the Lord messages'-- or even during
>conversation when the speaker isn't even aware that he is prophesying.
>
>I also see that there is agreat benefit, and a great need for, systematic
>Bible study. Paul did spend time actually teaching people. He instructed
>certain churches to read his letters in the meetings. I believe there is a
>place for some of the less 'spontaneous' activities like reading scripture and
>in-depth Bible study in meetings. I suspect a lot of churches, if they only
>had spontaneous kinds of meetings, would lack in-depth Bible teaching.
>
>(I also think that a large percentage of churches here in the US, which have
>preachers that preach sermons, have a definite need for more in-depth,
>systematic, Bible teaching.

Dear Link,

I have been thinking about responding to this thread, and your contribution has
finally encouraged me to do so.

My understanding and experience of 1 Corinthians 14 is that "everything that
happens ought to be for mutual edification." A lecture is one thing, "mutual"
is something else.

As I have come to understand it, there are those who have the office of
prophet. I'm not talking hierarchy or titles, just gifting. Those with this
gifting come prepared to share what The Lord has or is showing to them. God
wants that all his people would be prophets, so the meeting becomes a
environment pregnant with the prophetic. The sharing of those who are prepared
stimulates revelation in others who are present. This is fresh revelation. A
revelation of Christ in the midst. Once this happens, those who are prepared
should sit down, and let the spontaneous be expressed. All should test what is
shared, and this too is interactive.

Carnal mindedness or the futility of our Gentile thinking is not welcome, and
the best way to get beyond that kind of a mind set is to be filled with the
Spirit. It is quite apparent that music is a particularly effective weapon for
getting beyond intellectual strongholds, and entering into the Spirit. Let's
call it "mood music". It was there in the very beginning of creation: "1: Then
the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that
darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man;
for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the
foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid
the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone
thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted
for joy?" Job 38:1-7

But perhaps more to the point, music sets the stage for the prophetic, even
among the prophets: "And Elisha said: '... bring me a minstrel.' And it came to
pass, when the minstrel played, that the hand of the Lord came upon him. And he
said: 'Thus saith The Lord:.."2 Kings 3 -

In my experience, where prophecy is concerned, music is more important than
Charismatic bells and whistles, and Pentecostal smoke and mirrors. The Lord
meets people where they are, and speaks their language, not some kind of
prophetic lingo. It can come in ways that are very unselfconscious, and it can
come with the full knowledge and participation of the prophet, but by whatever
means, it must come from The Lord, and not flesh, especially not self
aggrandizing religious flesh.

Because our gathered time together is too important to be wasted where mutual
edification is concerned, unintelligible manifestations should be interpreted.
Whether tongues, falling down, gold dust, flipping out, laughing, etc. The Lord
has promised that such manifestation will increase in the time of the end, and
so the need to test and discern the real from the counterfeit is needed now
more than ever.

Where the place of women is concerned, I don't think anything has been written
on the subject that compares with Joanne Krupp's book, "WOMAN GOD'S PLAN not
MAN'S TRADITION" I highly recommend it.

Yours in Christ,

Jay

 


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