NT Church Proliferation Digest Wednesday, July 3 2002 Volume 02 : Number 114
Re: [NTCP] made in his sexual image ???
Re: [NTCP] Baptism
Re: [NTCP] Baptism
[NTCP] The magical mystical tour continues week after week on ntcp.
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 10:35:35 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] made in his sexual image ???
TheologusCrucis * cs <mailto:TheologusCrucis * cs> wrote:
> I failed to see where the Scriptures you have given me in reply to my
> last post support your position that we will be God after we die or
> after His 2nd coming, or are God thru being born again now.
I said none of those three. What I said was that God lives in us by the
new birth. The New birth is effected by an incorruptible seed. If it's
working right, we no longer live, but Christ lives in us. He is God.
> >>"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the
> Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another
> with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
> but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for
> ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower
> of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof
> falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is
> the word which by the gospel is preached unto you." 1 Peter 1:22-25<<
> We are indeed flesh -- the power of the Spirit in the Word does live
> and abide forever. The source of our new life is God, but He doesn't
> make us God incarnate. Or do you think He does, that we are just as
> much an incarnation as Jesus was?
Come on TC, I hope we know each other by now better than to ask this
kind of a question.
> >>"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the
> ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much
> fruit." John 12:24<<
> As Christ has done -- He is the first fruit of all who will be
> resurrected. But He will still be Christ, a member of the Trinity, and
> I will still be me -- glorified, but still me.
Well I think we need to talk about the implications of your
glorification both in time and substance.
> >>"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons
> of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of
> blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of
> God." John 1:12,13<<
> I'm pretty sure John isn't the Platonist that your giving him credit
> for being. The life we have is from God, but that life doesn't make us
> part of God or God Himself.
Oh yes it does. We are the Body of Christ, the fullness of Him who
filleth everything in every way, your reference to Plato not withstanding.
> We are considered "born again" because God gives us life much like our
> mothers do when we were born, not because God literally gave birth to
> versions of Himself!
Because he gave conception to one version of Himself, even Christ, and
through him we also become partakers of the divine nature.
> >>Is The Lord just playing with our minds here? I don't think so, we're
> the ones who use words loosely, not God, He creates with Words, and He
> reproduces with His uncreated Word.
> P.S. Does this make me a Gnostic wanabe?<<
> No, Jay, He isn't. I very much believe in the fact that the Scriptures
> are clear and understandable. Anyone responsibly interpreting
> Scripture comes from a foundational knowledge of God's Transcendence.
> He is so Other that He could never be comprehended without the
> incarnation as revelation.
> Without Plato there would have been no such thing as Gnosticism as the
> Church father Origen found out to his own undoing. He also blended
> Platonism with Christianity as well as allegorically interpreting
> Scripture -- which reminds me very strongly of someone's posts on this
> list, Jay!
Ah yes, Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
> You are by no means a "wannabe" when it comes to Gnosticism, Jay ;o)
> Believe it or not, this stuff does matter to planting HCs, because in
> the Great Commission God calls us to teach, to make disciples, of all
> the nations. The first 10 centuries of Church history is the Church
> trying to work it's way thru God's revelation of Himself thru Christ.
> This is why we ignore the three ecumenical creeds (Apostle's, Nicea,
> and Chalcedon) at our own peril. We are not to place the creeds above
> Scripture, but they were written by people in the midst of
> controversies that we will needlessly reinvent if we chose to remain
> ignorant. We must not only worship God with all our hearts, but with
> all our minds as well!
So where's the beef?? I can help you out with a little clue as to where
the beef might be. While the "church" was busy reducing the Word of God
to religious formulas, it was also going into the Dark Ages. Perhaps
it's time to stop burning one anothers books. "And there are also many
other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every
one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books
that should be written. Amen. " John 21:25
He is still writing books in, and with the lives of those who look to
Him. The fact that some of books He is writing in and through your life
are different than some of the books He is writing in and through my
life, doesn't invalidate the library of either. The fact is that Christ
is so much bigger then the revelation of any one of us, and if we can
speak the truth in love to one another, we will all go away from the
transaction with a bigger revelation of Christ than we started with. And
without doing violation to the Scriptures.
Yours in Him
P.S. Are you telling me something by your pen name? If so perhaps I need
to share an insight with you. You seem to have developed an
understanding of me. Let's call it Jayology. If your theology isn't any
better than your Jayology, I would suggest that you give up theology.
Why don't you consider trading it in for a relationship with Him. I know
from experience that He would much rather you have a relationship with
Him than a theology of Him. All our ologies are dreadfully fallen.
------- <><><> -------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:59:25 -0400
From: "Linkh * bigfoot" <Linkh * worldnet.att>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Baptism
This is a reply to an old message, but I haven't gotten around to posting
for a long time:
>.But I would ask you, Jay, is our pledge to God at "the very heart" of the
significance of baptism? No one dies at a wedding, Jay. Plus, of all the
Scriptures that I've read that pertains to baptism, I have yet to run into
the symbol of a wedding. I keep running into a cross and a tomb, though.<<
The following verse comes to mind.
Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
I really appreciated that paragraph in which you quoted from Dueteronomy 5
about how one generation of Israelites 'went back in time' in a sense when
they celebrated the Passover, and how that relates to the cross. I quoted
that in a sermon I preached in a Missionary Baptist church where I'm filling
in. That principle can really help us understand how that the Lord's Supper
is a participation with the body of Christ.
A question about baptism- if born of [water and spirit] includes baptism,
and baptism is for believers, then what about men like John Wesley baptized
as a baby.
------- <><><> -------
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 17:35:31 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Baptism
Linkh * bigfoot wrote:
>This is a reply to an old message, but I haven't gotten around to posting
>for a long time:
>>>But I would ask you, Jay, is our pledge to God at "the very heart" of the
>significance of baptism? No one dies at a wedding, Jay. Plus, of all the
>Scriptures that I've read that pertains to baptism, I have yet to run into
>the symbol of a wedding. I keep running into a cross and a tomb, though.<<
>The following verse comes to mind.
>Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by
>the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is
>raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
>I really appreciated that paragraph in which you quoted from Dueteronomy 5
>about how one generation of Israelites 'went back in time' in a sense when
>they celebrated the Passover, and how that relates to the cross. I quoted
>that in a sermon I preached in a Missionary Baptist church where I'm filling
>in. That principle can really help us understand how that the Lord's Supper
>is a participation with the body of Christ.
>A question about baptism- if born of [water and spirit] includes baptism,
>and baptism is for believers, then what about men like John Wesley baptized
>as a baby.
I think the real question is, does the candidate or the adult recipient
of infant baptism have the pledge of a good conscience toward God that
"Test yourself to see if you are in the faith...."
------- <><><> -------
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:54:51 -0400
From: David Anderson <david * housechurch>
Subject: [NTCP] The magical mystical tour continues week after week on ntcp.
More from Jay:
>So where's the beef?? I can help you out with a little clue as to where
>the beef might be. While the "church" was busy reducing the Word of God
>to religious formulas, it was also going into the Dark Ages. ....
Backwards, Jay. Jesus and the apostles constantly used formulas. (I won't
use the word 'religious' because you are totally clueless about its
meaning and usage.) To baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit
is, in fact, a formula. To reduce all the commandments to love is/was a
And it was the Reformation (though incomplete in some important aspects)
that took the church our of the Dark Ages. Oh, I know, I know - Gene
Edwards, who alone knows the real story - says otherwise.....
>He is still writing books in, and with the lives of those who look to
>Him. The fact that some of books He is writing in and through your life
>are different than some of the books He is writing in and through my
>life, doesn't invalidate the library of either. The fact is that Christ
>is so much bigger then the revelation of any one of us, and if we can
>speak the truth in love to one another, we will all go away from the
>transaction with a bigger revelation of Christ than we started with. And
>without doing violation to the Scriptures.
Yes, he's revealing himself in more ways than any one person can perceive
- - BUT HE IS NOT CONTRADICTING HIMSELF in the process.
>Yours in Him
>P.S. Are you telling me something by your pen name? If so perhaps I need
>to share an insight with you. You seem to have developed an
>understanding of me. Let's call it Jayology. If your theology isn't any
>better than your Jayology, I would suggest that you give up theology.
>Why don't you consider trading it in for a relationship with Him. I know
>from experience that He would much rather you have a relationship with
>Him than a theology of Him. All our ologies are dreadfully fallen.
Oh, here we go again - its doctrine versus relationship time. Couldn't
dare have both because that what contradict everything we read in our
little paperback books.
Jesus Christ, fyi, has inextricably linked himself to theology, doctrine,
facts, or whatever your preferred term is Jay. He is Lord of all things
and has something to say about all things. We don't receive him as
Saviour and then make Him our Lord at a later date. As Lord, all things,
people, truths, relate to him. The study and contemplation of this
relationship is theology. Not a biblical word but a biblical concept.
Truth is, very, very few words on this list are biblical words, because
they are not Hebrew, Aramaic, nor Greek.
Hey, :) how dare you suggest that TC trade theology for a relationship?
HIS THEOLOGY DEMANDS and NURTURES A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP.
Jesus devoted much of his life to teaching or doctrine (as the word
actually means) so surely there is a place for it - a great place,
because it represents Him if it is true. Theology is just a verbal handle
to refer to this body of doctrines, facts, or words. This is why He tells
us to abide in Him AND for his words to abide in us. John 15:7. This is
why he invites us, who are weary and heavy laden, to come to him AND to
learn of Him. Matt 11:29. Jesus is going to ordinarily, though by no
means only, deal with us through the scriptures. He can operate with or
without means, you know.
John 17:17 Sanctify them THROUGH THY TRUTH: thy word is truth.
John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that THEY ALSO MIGHT
BE SANCTIFIED ---- THROUGH THE TRUTH.
Yes, indeed, a person can become overly occupied with the doctrine rather
than the Person and fail to be a doer of the word but this isn't the
norm. Every good thing gets abused. Yes, a person can be a hearer rather
than doer, we know. Again, this is to disobey God which is always done at
ones own peril.
And Jay, please do not try to bring up the Pharisees at this point in the
discussion, who did not believe in Jesus but wanted to kill him rather
than bow before him.
It never ceases to amaze me at what great lengths person will go to
attempt to reconcile with the Scriptures something they read - rather
than the other way around.
Equally amusing, though sad, are the brothers and sisters who maintain
that they are "against doctrine or theology." Yet hang out with them for
a while and you'll notice that they have no shortage of doctrines, or
teachings - a.k.a. theology - of their own. And if you should disagree
with or question their 'unspoken' theology (or the doctrines which they
alone have received, in Jay's case) you'll be standing in front of a
freight train. Lol.
Jesus is truth Himself. As such, everything he spoke was also true. "Out
of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." To attempt to separate
Jesus from his truth or doctrines is to attempt to put asunder what God
has joined. Increasingly, many are bent on this and find "house church"
as their outlet. To attempt to make such a separation is ridiculous.
Doctrine - or theology, which is the investigation of doctrine, are not
dirty words. If doctrine were unnecessary, Jesus and the writers of
scripture would have informed us about it. They didn't. Instead they
devoted their lives to it, i.e. teaching. What they did warn us about was
false teaching and not following the teachings that we had received. The
teachings of the scriptures always exalt Jesus, so there is nothing to
fear if He is at the center.
If the apostles and Christ were as indifferent about doctrine as some
today, they would have had no reason to write anything except: Don't
worry about nothing, doctrine doesn't matter.
Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the
mouth of God.
Luke 4:32 And they were astonished AT HIS DOCTRINE: for his word was
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, MY DOCTRINE IS NOT MINE, BUT
HIS THAT SENT ME.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE,
whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
The operative phrase is "my word" in these texts:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that HEARETH MY WORD, and
believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come
into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE
CONTINUE IN MY WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me,
BECAUSE MY WORD HATH NO PLACE IN YOU.
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because YE CANNOT
HEAR MY WORD.
Rev. 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door,
and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, AND HAST KEPT MY
WORD, and hast not denied my name.
Let's get out of these horse latitudes asap and move on to the topic of
spreading the good news.
End of New Testament Church Proliferation Digest V2 #114 < Previous Digest Next Digest >