New Testament Church Proliferation Digest


Spreading the Gospel via House Churches



NT Church Proliferation Digest Saturday, August 17 2002 Volume 02 : Number 143
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?
RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?
RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:58:00 -0400
From: "Linkh * bigfoot" <Linkh * worldnet.att>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Mike Sangrey

> It does for me <smile> The differentiator is WHO does the sending.
> That's not to say that any beneficial activity done by a believer
> ultimately is not from the Lord, but it's more to describe how this
> activity of sending and being sent works out in the real world were
> people get their jeans dirty. That's why there are not, IMO, anyone
> today who can claim to be an Apostle of Jesus, the Messiah in the way
> the 12 could. There are other apostles, but the WHO who has done the
> sending is different. IMO, Jesus isn't tapping anyone on the shoulder
> (or blinding anyone) today and sending them out...
I don't see any reason to think that Christ might not appear to someone and
send him out as an apostle. Probably thousands throughout the ages have
reported seeing visions of Christ.

Paul, Timothy, and Silas are called 'apostles of Christ.' We don't know if
Silas knew Christ, if he were one of the seventy, a witness of the
resurrection, or what. But Timothy was from Derbe. He was probably sent
out into apostolic work through a prophecy with the laying on of hands of
the elders and/or the laying on of Paul's hands. Whether he saw Christ or
not we don't know. He, Silas, and Paul were 'apostles of Christ.' They are
not called 'apostles of the churches.'

Christ may have spoken through the Spirit, though, and made known His will
that Timothy be an apostle. Paul mentions the prophecy spoken with the
laying on of hands of the elders, and wanted Timothy to do good warfare by
the prophecies spoken about him.

Link Hudson


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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:58:16 -0400
From: "Linkh * bigfoot" <Linkh * worldnet.att>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Mike Sangrey

> It does for me <smile> The differentiator is WHO does the sending.
> That's not to say that any beneficial activity done by a believer
> ultimately is not from the Lord, but it's more to describe how this
> activity of sending and being sent works out in the real world were
> people get their jeans dirty. That's why there are not, IMO, anyone
> today who can claim to be an Apostle of Jesus, the Messiah in the way
> the 12 could. There are other apostles, but the WHO who has done the
> sending is different. IMO, Jesus isn't tapping anyone on the shoulder
> (or blinding anyone) today and sending them out...
I don't see any reason to think that Christ might not appear to someone and
send him out as an apostle. Probably thousands throughout the ages have
reported seeing visions of Christ. Have any apostles on this list seen
Christ?

Paul, Timothy, and Silas are called 'apostles of Christ.' We don't know if
Silas knew Christ, if he were one of the seventy, a witness of the
resurrection, or what. But Timothy was from Derbe. He was probably sent
out into apostolic work through a prophecy with the laying on of hands of
the elders and/or the laying on of Paul's hands. Whether he saw Christ or
not we don't know. He, Silas, and Paul were 'apostles of Christ.' They are
not called 'apostles of the churches.'

Christ may have spoken through the Spirit, though, and made known His will
that Timothy be an apostle. Paul mentions the prophecy spoken with the
laying on of hands of the elders, and wanted Timothy to do good warfare by
the prophecies spoken about him.

Link Hudson


------- <><><> -------


Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:58:26 -0400
From: "Linkh * bigfoot" <Linkh * worldnet.att>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Mike Sangrey

> It does for me <smile> The differentiator is WHO does the sending.
> That's not to say that any beneficial activity done by a believer
> ultimately is not from the Lord, but it's more to describe how this
> activity of sending and being sent works out in the real world were
> people get their jeans dirty. That's why there are not, IMO, anyone
> today who can claim to be an Apostle of Jesus, the Messiah in the way
> the 12 could. There are other apostles, but the WHO who has done the
> sending is different. IMO, Jesus isn't tapping anyone on the shoulder
> (or blinding anyone) today and sending them out...
I don't see any reason to think that Christ might not appear to someone and
send him out as an apostle. Paul, Timothy, and Silas are called 'apostles
of Christ.' We don't know if
Silas knew Christ, if he were one of the seventy, a witness of the
resurrection, or what. But Timothy was from Derbe. He was probably sent
out into apostolic work through a prophecy with the laying on of hands of
the elders and/or the laying on of Paul's hands. Whether he saw Christ or
not we don't know. He, Silas, and Paul were 'apostles of Christ.' They are
not called 'apostles of the churches.'

Christ may have spoken through the Spirit, though, and made known His will
that Timothy be an apostle. Paul mentions the prophecy spoken with the
laying on of hands of the elders, and wanted Timothy to do good warfare by
the prophecies spoken about him.

Link Hudson


------- <><><> -------


Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 19:59:05 -0400
From: "Linkh * bigfoot" <Linkh * worldnet.att>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Mike Sangrey

> It does for me <smile> The differentiator is WHO does the sending.
> That's not to say that any beneficial activity done by a believer
> ultimately is not from the Lord, but it's more to describe how this
> activity of sending and being sent works out in the real world were
> people get their jeans dirty. That's why there are not, IMO, anyone
> today who can claim to be an Apostle of Jesus, the Messiah in the way
> the 12 could. There are other apostles, but the WHO who has done the
> sending is different. IMO, Jesus isn't tapping anyone on the shoulder
> (or blinding anyone) today and sending them out...
I don't see any reason to think that Christ might not appear to someone and
send him out as an apostle. Probably thousands throughout the ages have
reported seeing visions of Christ. Have any apostles on this list seen
Christ?

Paul, Timothy, and Silas are called 'apostles
of Christ.'

Silas knew Christ, if he were one of the seventy, a witness of the
resurrection, or what. But Timothy was from Derbe. He was probably sent
out into apostolic work through a prophecy with the laying on of hands of
the elders and/or the laying on of Paul's hands. Whether he saw Christ or
not we don't know. He, Silas, and Paul were 'apostles of Christ.' They are
not called 'apostles of the churches.'

Christ may have spoken through the Spirit, though, and made known His will
that Timothy be an apostle. Paul mentions the prophecy spoken with the
laying on of hands of the elders, and wanted Timothy to do good warfare by
the prophecies spoken about him.

Link Hudson


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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:06:44 -0400
From: David Anderson <david * housechurch>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

>The main moderator of BGreek and a retired Greek and Latin professor of
>40 years, Carl Conrad, changed his mind after the discussion. Before he
>leaned toward Junia, a woman, being an apostle. However, one rather
>resourceful person provided a few passages from extra-biblical sources
>which had very similar constructions. In those contexts it was clear
>that the person being referred to was considered noteworthy by the group
>of people. So, Carl now leans toward that position.

What, somebody - some man - actually changed his mind and admitted it on
the internet????? Is this the latter day glory or what? :)

Thanks for the intelligent posts, brother.

Godspeed,

David Anderson


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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:33:16 +0200
From: "Keith Smith" <castillofuerte * airtel>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Link Wrote:
I don't see any reason to think that Christ might not appear to someone and
send him out as an apostle. Probably thousands throughout the ages have
reported seeing visions of Christ. Have any apostles on this list seen
Christ?

Yes, when the Lord called me. I had what might be called a vision of the
Lord, although there were certain physical signs that seemed to indicate
that it was something other than a vision. I very rarely share this, perhaps
I have a professional fear of mental hospitals ; ). I recall I saw the Lord
whilst walking, quite late at night, in heavy rain near my home in 1974. It
was as though the road in front of me suddenly had a tear in it, like in
cloth. Through the tear I could see brilliant moving lights, with a strong
tendency to green, although all colours were there. I heard a voice that
said, do not fear, Come! I entered through the tear and was surrounded by
the brilliant light, I could now see that the colours were beings (angels)
who's clothing was like light. I saw other people, who I seemed to recognise
as characters from the Bible, and one was my grand mother who died when I
was a child. All of these people were looking towards a throne. The voice
again said "come". When I moved towards the throne I saw someone sitting on
the throne. I could not make out the features of his face as this figure
shone so brightly but I could see the wounds in His hands feet and side. I
fell on my face. The person on the throne spoke to me for a long time,
talking about, things that I had done. Then he asked, will you go for me? I
said yes, and the Lord spoke to me of three areas of ministry that he wanted
me to move in: The apostolic, healing folk hurt by other Christians and
calling back to the Lord lost sheep. I have been doing that ever since. You
may think that all of this is very subjective. But! When the vision came to
an end I was at my home (some 2 miles away) and my clothes were dry, even
though it was still raining heavily outside. My parents couldn't understand
how I could have got home dry. They said that even running to the door from
a car I would be wet through. Then, until that point in my life I had
suffered an eye condition, that meant that I had to wear special glasses.
This was healed totally. The glasses I wear today are only a testimony of
age. My ophthalmologist, said that he had never seen anyone enter into
remission with this condition. My family still have the letter he wrote to
that effect. Thirdly, my call was confirmed by my church after a rigorous
time of prayer and testing.

Blessings
Keith.


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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 17:37:02 +0200
From: "Keith Smith" <castillofuerte * airtel>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Personally I have no problem at all with women fulfilling any of the 5 fold
ministries, where i do stop short is women elders. These do not appear in
the bible and therefore I think that we have to be carefull here. I do admit
women deacons and have one in the church here.

Blessings
Keith


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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:55:08 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Keith Smith wrote:

>Personally I have no problem at all with women fulfilling any of the 5 fold
>ministries, where i do stop short is women elders. These do not appear in
>the bible and therefore I think that we have to be careful here.
>
Dear Keith,

I guess I said this before, but perhaps a second time won't hurt
anything. To read the Bible without taking note of what God has revealed
of HImself in the things created, leaves us religious. To take note of
the creation without reading the Bible, leaves us clueless.

We're talking about life, the oversight of new creation life. What does
the old creation tell us about the oversight of old creation life? It
tells me that there are fathers and mothers, and grand fathers and grand
mothers, even great grand fathers and great grand mothers. Now tell me,
are the grandmothers less likely to have the hindsight, and insight
necessary for oversight then the grandfathers?

The question is, How does God do life? How does he oversee the business
of living? If we don't learn from the first time He did life, then we
are without excuse.

There being nothing in the Scripture to prohibit an older woman from
being in the postition of being able to oversee, then why should we not
avail ourselves of the wisdom and insight, even oversight of mature
women, especially since, "... in Christ there is.... neither male nor
female." That's where we are going. We could start now, and avoid, not
only the rush, but the shock to our male systems. For, "many who are
first will be last, and the last first."

Yours in Christ,

Jay


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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 12:08:17 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Keith Smith wrote:

>Personally I have no problem at all with women fulfilling any of the 5
fold
>ministries, where i do stop short is women elders. These do not appear in
>the bible and therefore I think that we have to be careful here.

Dear Keith,

P.S. Our real problem is will we be able to recognize an authentic
Church, should we stumble into one in spite of all that we have done.

Jay


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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 15:59:27 EDT
From: JAMESRUTZ * cs
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Dear Keith,

Thank you for sharing your 1974 vision. I promise not to call the men
in white coats. Sounds 100% real to me!

Jesus never appears to me. He probably just doesn't want to hear a
barrage of dumb questions, like, "Why did you make avocado pits so big?" and
"Do you allow dogs in heaven?" and "Could you please explain the Trinity to
me in 25 words or less in simple English?"

I hope your post encourages another list member, John Fenn, to share one
or two of his fascinating conversations with Jesus (also 100% valid). John,
over to you ....

Jim Rutz
Colorado Springs


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Date: 17 Aug 2002 16:34:45 -0400
From: Mike Sangrey <msangrey * BlueFeltHat>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

On Fri, 2002-08-16 at 19:58, Linkh * bigfoot wrote:
> Mike Sangrey
>
> > It does for me <smile> The differentiator is WHO does the sending.
> > That's not to say that any beneficial activity done by a believer
> > ultimately is not from the Lord, but it's more to describe how this
> > activity of sending and being sent works out in the real world were
> > people get their jeans dirty. That's why there are not, IMO, anyone
> > today who can claim to be an Apostle of Jesus, the Messiah in the way
> > the 12 could. There are other apostles, but the WHO who has done the
> > sending is different. IMO, Jesus isn't tapping anyone on the shoulder
> > (or blinding anyone) today and sending them out...
>
>
> I don't see any reason to think that Christ might not appear to someone and
> send him out as an apostle. Probably thousands throughout the ages have
> reported seeing visions of Christ.

Sorry, my fault, I was rather unclear. I agree, Christ could do that.
However, there's a difference, at least in my mind, between delegating
the authority to lay the foundation of a whole new way of being
wineskins (cf the 12) and the delegating to plant a local body.

Also, when someone tells me: "I've seen Jesus in a vision and He told
me such-n-such; therefore you have to do what I tell you," I reply, "OK,
how can you prove to me that you have THAT level of authority?" Now, if
they are saying, "I was given authority to preach in this city," I say,
"no problem." I may even say, "How can I help?" Though, even then I'd
like to see some spiritual credentials of maturity. But, if they say,
"I'm an apostle, Jesus said so, therefore you have to adopt my vision
for this city and submit to how I'm organizing the evangelistic
outreach," well, that's a different story. Can Jesus give that type of
authority today? Yeah! Sure! But the person is going to have to prove
it first. And that takes a lot more than, "I had this dream."

Let me add that I'm NOT diminishing the guidance anyone has gotten by
vision or dream or what-have-you. My focus here is on what level of
authority they have been delegated and how to discern whether that is
true or not. No person is an island, apostolic or otherwise.

> Paul, Timothy, and Silas are called 'apostles of Christ.' We don't know if
> Silas knew Christ, if he were one of the seventy, a witness of the
> resurrection, or what. But Timothy was from Derbe. He was probably sent
> out into apostolic work through a prophecy with the laying on of hands of
> the elders and/or the laying on of Paul's hands. Whether he saw Christ or
> not we don't know. He, Silas, and Paul were 'apostles of Christ.' They are
> not called 'apostles of the churches.'

I assume you're referring to 1 Thess. 2:6?

I'm going to sort of, kind of, tentatively disagree with your conclusion
based on some checks I try to use when I interpret the text. HOWEVER, I
have to admit you may be right. It would take quite a bit for me to
share what I'm currently thinking, so I'm going to refrain from doing
that. You raise a VERY good objection. The issues with me have to do
with: the writers' main point and how much support that main point
needs from believing all three are apostles in the same way as Paul was;
the true relationship of both the participle and the word WS ("as"); the
fact the participle and main verb are plural; was "apostles of Christ"
always a technical term or could it be used in the same way as someone
saying, "AS MARRIED MEN we need to treat women with respect..." (the
group may not ALL be married), etc. I would be far more comfortable
agreeing with you outright and with out reservation, if other places
(like Col. 1:1) said, "Paul and Timothy, apostles of Christ Jesus..."
But, Paul makes a distinction there. Why? I think there are a number
of potential answers to that question.

Overall, you make a good observation.

>
> Christ may have spoken through the Spirit, though, and made known His will
> that Timothy be an apostle. Paul mentions the prophecy spoken with the
> laying on of hands of the elders, and wanted Timothy to do good warfare by
> the prophecies spoken about him.
>
> Link Hudson
>
>
> ~ ~ ~ ntcp info page: http://world-missions/planting ~ ~ ~
Mike Sangrey
msangrey * BlueFeltHat
Landisburg, Pa.
"The first one last wins."
"A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."


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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:54:49 +0200
From: "Keith Smith" <castillofuerte * airtel>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?
John and I have a mutual friend who I'm sure would like him to share too.
John I don't know you personally, but have been blessed by the writings on
your web, I join with Jim in looking forward to what you might share.

Blessings,
Keith

P.S. Thanks Jim for the encouragement


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Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 16:19:16 -0600
From: "JC Elder" <jcelder1 * earthlink>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Keith,
I am very blessed to have friends like you, Jim and John.

I don't think they will be calling the white coats on you (at least I won't)

When I read your vision I thought of John Fenn. I hope he will share. He
has had several visions, but one where Jesus taught his some key things. So
John, it's your turn now!

J.C.
Pueblo, Colorado


End of New Testament Church Proliferation Digest V2 #143 < Previous Digest Next Digest >



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