New Testament Church Proliferation Digest


Spreading the Gospel via House Churches



NT Church Proliferation Digest Thursday, August 22 2002 Volume 02 : Number 146
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
[NTCP] A one-woman man...
RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?
RE: [NTCP] Women Elders: 2 John - Reply to Dick and Keith
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
RE: [NTCP] What are apostles? - authority of women
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - authority of women
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops
Re: [NTCP] In what capacity, women elders?
Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:55:13 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops

TheologusCrucis * cs wrote:

> Gender had everything to do with it, Sam, as I don't know any males
> that could be saved in childbearing!.

Dear T.C.

"This is a great mystery, which speaks of Christ and the Church." Guess
which one we are. When Job was going through his labor pains, his wife
couldn't handle being in the delivery room, but he was saved in child
birth just as we are. "For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is
given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder..."

Yours In Christ,

Jay

P.S. My impression is that John's "elect lady" is the "church" he was
writing to.


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:57:36 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Mike Sangrey wrote:

>I've asked this rather obvious question, too. And, by `obvious' I mean
>to say that the question sort of jumps off the page and needs to be
>appropriately answered or the implication needs to be simply believed.
>
>The answer given to me, and I'm not convinced yet, is that the "one
>wifed man" (MIAS GUNAIKOS ANDRA) was their way of saying `monogamous'.
>That is, it was an idiom which when taken as a unit had a certain
>meaning not necessarily divisible into its parts. Expressions like
>"it's raining cats and dogs" or "go take a flying leap" are similar.
>
>What I've needed, and haven't really gotten my hands on yet, are
>citations which support this. However, on the other hand, placing the
>genitive before the noun to which it modifies adds emphasis to the "one
>wifeness" (if you will). Why did Paul do that? There's explanations of
>why this is so, but they seem somewhat strained given the context of
>"not being a drunkard, not getting into fist fights, and not greedy."
>Gosh, even I have those qualifications. The point is that the expression
>does, to my ear, sound like an idiom.
>
>I still think the major issue of women being elders has more to do with
>a misunderstanding of what elders/bishops actually do. We seem to
>always define the function in terms of power. And that's not the
>role--not for women, and not for men.
>
>Paul, in Phil. 3 addresses the "mature" (KJV has "perfect") in vs 15.
>In the context Paul tells these mature people to follow his example.
>And what was that example? It's 3:7-11. "Fellowship of His
>sufferings": interesting expression. That is the `how' of standing
>firm (cf 3:17, 4:1, 9).
>
God Bless you Mike!

Jay


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:53:22 +0000
From: "David Jaggernauth" <abccom * hotmail>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Im trying to catch up on this thread, but I can tell you of two real life
instances I know of where Jesus appeared in person to someone and sent them.

The first case is an uncle of mine who was a Presbyterian elder. He was a
heavy drinker and was very much into the party life (thats okay among
presbyterians here) Jesus appeared to him one day in a waking visionand
spoke to him. After that day he was totally changed and began preaching the
Gospel (in truth). his life was so transformed it was unbelievable to those
who knew him.

The other case is of a moslem man who had a visit by the Lord. he lived in a
little rural village in my country, this happened sometime in the 50's. He
immediately left his home (everything he had) and began walking. Everytime
the lord told him, he would stop and pray. he walked several miles until he
reached the city, may have been about 8 to 10 miles ( he never went back
home).

When he revisited this route about 20 to 25 years later he discovered that
each place he stopped and prayed had a Church planted on it now.
This man has been all over the world preaching and performing many
phenomenal signs and miracles (some witnessed by physicians in America). I
heard this testimony from him personally (I wept when he shared it) and he
was the humblest Christian soul I have ever met. he died last year, but my
meeting him has had a lasting impact on my life and really touched me. The
thing that amazed me the most about him was his incredible humility and the
level of revelation he walked in for someone so unknown. It is regretful
that he never wrote any books.

David Jaggernauth
Trinidad
>From: Vanessa DiDomenico <van3hijos * yahoo>
>Reply-To: ntcp * homechurch
>To: ntcp * homechurch
>Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?
>Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:21:42 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
> > I don't see any reason to think that Christ might not appear to someone
> > and
> > send him out as an apostle. Probably thousands throughout the ages have
> > reported seeing visions of Christ.
>
>I heard Him speak to me and give me specific instructions. My husband
>thinks I had a hallucination, my doctor says it was a simple partial
>seizure, and most people think I'm nuts when I tell them. But I know what
>I heard...
>
>BTW, doctors also think that Paul's seeing Jesus when he fell off the
>horse was an epileptic seizure.
>
>I have never before or after heard anything spoken like that time. Never
>heard any other voice.
>
>vanessa from Venezuela
>
~ ~ ~ ntcp info page: http://world-missions/planting ~ ~ ~

info page: http://world-missions.org/planting <><><>


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:35:17 -0400
From: Marti Grahl <nestmom * nestmom>
Subject: [NTCP] A one-woman man...

>The issue, here, is that Paul said that the bishop should be a man-- a
>'one woman man' i.e., the husband of one wife.
>
>If bishops are to be women, why did Paul say that they should be men?

Perhaps he wasn't saying "bishops have to be men." Maybe only the men were
having trouble remaining monogamous, so the women didn't need to be
included in that reminder.
Marti
Wife to Chris, and mom to Emilee, Rachel, Katie, and Becky
Smithsburg, MD
"Unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as unquestioned answers"


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:49:33 +0200
From: "Keith Smith" <castillofuerte * airtel>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Jay Wrote:
If Phebe could be a deacon, Romans 16:9, then Priscilla can be an elder.

Simple because the Bible never identifies her as such. She is known as an
apostle.
Blessings,
Keith


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:58:56 +0200
From: "Keith Smith" <castillofuerte * airtel>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] Women Elders: 2 John - Reply to Dick and Keith

Dear Sam,
First I think that the righteous lady addressed here was the Church, not a
woman in particular. And second, anyone who knows me, knows that I am not
against womens ministry. What I am against is women elders. Someone else
said God's authority plan is God, Husband, Wife, Children.

As far as Women in ministry are concerned I know and respect women in each
of the 5 fold ministries. Because they are just that, not offices giving
inbuilt authority.

Blessings
Keith
- -----Mensaje original-----
De: owner-ntcp * homechurch [mailto:owner-ntcp * homechurch]En nombre de
Samuel Buick
Enviado el: 21 August 2002 13:44
Para: ntcp * homechurch
Asunto: [NTCP] Women Elders: 2 John - Reply to Dick and Keith
Hi again!

Just a question. In Second John we read of the righteous lady. My study
shows the following:

2 John1:1 The elder unto the elect <1588> lady <2959> and her children ,
whom I love in the truth and not I only, but also all they that have known
the truth

1588 eklektov eklektos ek-lek-tos' from 1586; TDNT-4:181,505; adj AV-elect
16, chosen 7; 23 1) picked out, chosen
1a) chosen by God,
1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class,
excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual
Christians

2959 Kuria Kuria koo-ree'-ah
from 2962; TDNT-3:1095,486; n f AV-lady 2; 2 1) a Christian woman to whom
the second Epistle of John is addressed

translators haven't had the guts to translate this word which is the
feminine form of KURIOS

2962 kuriov kurios koo'-ree-os
from kuros (supremacy); TDNT-3:1039,486; n m AV-Lord 667, lord 54, master
11, sir 6, Sir 6, misc 4; 748 1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about
which he has
power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence,
with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

John addresses her as the chosen lord, or leader and it is obvious further
on that she is in charge of a church that meets in her house. He assigns her
responsiblity for keeping the false apostle/prophets/teachers out of her
house church. Now if she isn't the elder/pastor/leader of the church, what
is she?

I believe historical bias against women in oversight is at issue clearly
from the grammatical historical context of this passage. So why not have
women as elders?

Sam

>From: ScogginsTravel * ccmail.lfa
>Reply-To: ntcp * homechurch
>To: ntcp * homechurch
>Subject: Re[2]: [NTCP] What are apostles?
>Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:15:00 +0000
>
> Dear Keith,
> This is exactly my postion. I have found few who agree. Great to
>hear!
> Thanks for your encouragement. We actually have more women deacons
> than men.
> Dick
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: RE: [NTCP] What are apostles?
>Author: ntcp * homechurch at lfa-internet
>Date: 8/17/2002 3:37 PM
>
>
>Personally I have no problem at all with women fulfilling any of the 5 fold
>ministries, where i do stop short is women elders. These do not appear in
>the bible and therefore I think that we have to be carefull here. I do
>admit
>women deacons and have one in the church here.
>
>Blessings
>Keith
>
>
> ~ ~ ~ ntcp info page: http://world-missions/planting ~ ~ ~
info page: http://world-missions.org/planting <><><>


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:58:25 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Keith Smith wrote:

>Jay Wrote:
> If Phebe could be a deacon, Romans 16:9, then Priscilla can be an elder.
>
>Simple because the Bible never identifies her as such. She is known as an
>apostle.
>
I'll drink to that," ... not to leave the other undone". Peter was both.

Jay


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:39:02 -0400
From: "Richard Wright" <wright47 * sc.rr>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] What are apostles? - authority of women

Sam,

To address the logic: there are tens of thousands of men and women
around the world calling themselves reverend; does that make it
scriptural?

Blessings,

Dick
Phil.3:12-14


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:11:16 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - authority of women

Richard Wright wrote:

>Sam,
>
>To address the logic: there are tens of thousands of men and women
>around the world calling themselves reverend; does that make it
>scriptural?
>
Dear Richard,

At the risk of picking up dogs by the ears, I had to offer an answer to
your question: "No, but it doesn't make it real either. Perhaps that's
the difference. "

Jay


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:09:54 EDT
From: Steffasong * aol
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops
In a message dated 08/21/2002 10:07:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
TheologusCrucis * cs writes:
> Gender had everything to do with it, Sam, as I don't know any males that
> could be saved in childbearing!.
Hello dear brother TC. Not for anything, but do you know of any woman who
can be saved in childbearing?

I mean, that would be a 'works righteousness' approach to salvation, would it
not? And what about the women who are barren or single? Does not being able
to bear children nix them from the ability to be saved?

I don't mean to be rhetorical in my approach to your comments, but the
cultural context of holy writ certainly must have some bearing on these
questions. If not, we would be a race full of brethren with gouged out eyes.
(eg. 'If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out)

The way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. It's the 'narrow' way, yes,
but God's heart is far from narrow, and I think that taking the most literal
interpretation of scripture cuts God's heart out of the Body of Christ in a
big way.

Also, you said:

>>>
> But what does this controversy matter, anyway? Most HC that I have been to
> don't believe in anyone having authority over anybody -- it would break the
> harmony of the commune ;o) \
> >> I wonder if you could expound, TC. I have found that it matters not
whether the expression of the church exists in a home or in a traditional
'church' building, -- the issue of authority is nearly always misinterpreted.
The issue of anyone 'having authority over anybody' seems to fly in the face
of our Lord's strong example and words (eg. Mathew 23 'it shall not be so
among you').

I'd love to hear a bit more of what you mean by authority in the church.
Thanks, and bless you!
Stephanie


------- <><><> -------


Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:32:18 EDT
From: TheologusCrucis * cs
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops
>>"This is a great mystery, which speaks of Christ and the Church." Guess
which one we are. When Job was going through his labor pains, his wife
couldn't handle being in the delivery room, but he was saved in child
birth just as we are. "For unto us a child is born, and unto us a Son is
given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder..."<<

Jay, Jay, my allegorical friend... ;o) Unfortunately you have to explain Paul
- -- who was not being allegorical in his written instructions to Timothy --
saying, in plain Greek, that he did not allow women to have authority over
men, because of their differing roles in creation and the fall. And suprise,
suprise, Sgt. Carter -- you didn't even engage the text of 1 Timothy 1:11-15
at all!

(Very glib, there, about Job. I wonder if he would have thought of his
experiences in such an allegorical light?)

Speaking of roles:

>>P.S. My impression is that John's "elect lady" is the "church" he was
writing to.<<

Well, John's "elect lady" is one Scripture. How about we talk about where
this subject is plainly addressed in Scripture, in detail and at length? Paul
in Ephesians 5:22-33 does speak of the mystery of Christ's relationship to
His "elect lady" (the Church) by giving the illustration of human marriage
between a man and a women.

Equal in salvation, worth, and acceptance by God thru faith to a man, the
wife's role is to submit to the husband as the Church, the Bride of Christ,
submits to Jesus.
The man, equal in salvation, worth, and acceptance by God thru faith to a
woman, the husband is to play the role that Christ, the heavenly husband of
the Church played. As He is the head of the Body, so the husband is to lead
his wife. And He is to do it as Christ did -- giving his life in love for his
wife as they travel together to that city not made by human hands.

They are equal before God with different God-given gender roles. I realize,
Jay, that you have little use for what I would consider hermeneutics in
interpreting Scripture, but I'm wondering: What do you suppose Paul meant the
Ephesians to understand about the role of the Church to Christ and to gender
roles in the Church? If you received this letter as authoritative as the
Elder(s) of the Ephesian Church did, how would you have implemented Paul's
guideline?

TC


------- <><><> -------


Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:26:03 EDT
From: TheologusCrucis * cs
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles? - female bishops

Stephanie,

Greetings and salutations to you as well! Good to hear from you again.

You asked:

>>Not for anything, but do you know of any woman who can be saved in
childbearing? I mean, that would be a 'works righteousness' approach to
salvation, would it not? And what about the women who are barren or single?
Does not being able to bear children nix them from the ability to be saved?<<

I'm sorry, Stephanie, I should have put "be saved in childbearing" in quotes.
In my post to Sam I was trying to make a point directly from 1 Timothy 1:15
- -- that gender wise men cannot deliver children. (Thank God! I'm to much of a
wimp where pain like that!) Of course I believe that we are saved, both men
and women, by God thru faith alone in Christ alone by grace alone to the
glory of God alone. My point wasn't salvation, as Paul was speaking about
believing women in the Church to Timothy anyway. I believe Paul was speaking
of sanctification in this particular verse in using the word "saved."

>>I don't mean to be rhetorical in my approach to your comments, but the
cultural context of holy writ certainly must have some bearing on these
questions. If not, we would be a race full of brethren with gouged out eyes.
(e.g. 'If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out)

The way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. It's the 'narrow' way, yes,
but God's heart is far from narrow, and I think that taking the most literal
interpretation of scripture cuts God's heart out of the Body of Christ in a
big way.<<

Well, I think we should read the Bible to some extent as we would read any
other book, and recognize literary devises like exaggeration to make a point.
I don't think Jesus meant what He said about cutting off hands and poking out
eyes to be taken as literal. I don't think Paul meant that women were saved
by childbirth instead of by faith.

And yes, cultural differences must be taken into account. But Paul, IMHO,
transcended culture by invoking the different roles men and women played in
the order of creation and in the fall. I don't think we should make women
wear head coverings, etc., but at the same time we cannot ignore what he was
saying about gender roles in the creation and the fall as simply cultural.

As to your second question. I had written:

>>But what does this controversy matter, anyway? Most HC that I have been to
don't believe in anyone having authority over anybody -- it would break the
harmony of the commune ;o)<<

You asked:

>>I wonder if you could expound, TC. I have found that it matters not
whether the expression of the church exists in a home or in a traditional
'church' building, -- the issue of authority is nearly always misinterpreted.
The issue of anyone 'having authority over anybody' seems to fly in the face
of our Lord's strong example and words (eg. Mathew 23 'it shall not be so
among you'). I'd love to hear a bit more of what you mean by authority in the
church.<<

I guess it would depend on what one associated with the word "authority."
Americans, especially Boomer Americans who grew up questioning authority in
the 60s and 70s, has very little positive associations with the term.

Only God has authority as our Father, Creator of heaven and earth. God has
sovereign authority based on who He is -- it is part of His character and
attributes. My Key study Bible has this for the word authority in Mark 11:28:

"Mark 11:28 -- 1849 exousia (in the sense of ability); privilege, i.e., (sub)
force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (obj.) mastery, delegated influence:
- -- authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength."

God has given His authority to men as a common grace for all -- in a sense He
has ordained human government (Rom. 13:1-7). The authority He has is meant to
be used as He uses it in justice and love. But human govt., being fallen,
misuses the authority God gives, and tend to lord it over people, to have
privilege and power at the expense of justice. Humility is not in the cards
for human powers and heads of state. Those men and women rule by force of
will and threat of violence.

Jesus in Matthew 23 basically says that someone who has authority in the
Church -- delegated influence and power -- is one who is humble. Paul
appointed Elders by the authority he had as an apostle. Christ led with
firmness and commanded spiritual powers as well as His followers. Shepherds
lead the flock with a rod and a staff.

We make the mistake of thinking just because the leader is humble means that
he doesn't lead with authority. Just because a king cleans out a stable
doesn't mean that he isn't a king does. In the same way, just because and
Elder or Deacon washes feet or serves their flock doesn't mean they do not
have authority to lead the Church.

"For there are many who rebel against right teaching; they engage in useless
talk and deceive people. This is especially true of those who insist on
circumcision for salvation. They must be silenced... So rebuke them as
sternly as necessary to make them strong in the faith." Titus 1:10, 13 NLT

"If anyone is causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning.
After that, have nothing to do with that person." Titus 3:10 NLT

I think those that have authority in the church are meant to lead, just as
Christ leads the Church, as a husband leads his wife -- humbly,
self-sacrificingly (is that a word?), compassionately, and lovingly. They are
to lead and exercise their authority knowing it isn't their own, it's on loan
from God and they will have to account for how they used it. But they are to
lead! Not push, not pull, but to lead by force of personal example (Paul's
"follow me as I follow Christ") --

"An Elder must be must be well thought of for His good life. He must be
faithful to his wife, and his children must be believers who are not wild and
rebellious. An Elder must lead a blameless life because he is God's minister.
He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered; he must not be a heavy drinker,
violent, or greedy for money. He must enjoy having guests in his home and
must love all that is good. He must live wisely and be fair. He must live a
devout and disciplined life. He must have a strong and steadfast belief in
the trustworthy message he was taught; then he will be able to encourage
others with right teaching and show those who oppose it where they are
wrong." Titus 1:6-9 NLT

I find that our ICs tend to produce a copy of the worldly leader that
manipulates, pushes, and pulls -- a CEO that isn't humble thru service. Our
house church movement here in America tends to be a little like a hippie commune -- no
one is leading, they do things by group consensus. There's an house church that I speak
at by invitation every once in a while, and they wouldn't really know what to
do with this Scripture as there aren't any leaders:

"Obey your spiritual leaders and do what they say. Their work is to watch
after your souls, and they know they are accountable to God. Give them reason
to do this joyfully and not with sorrow. That would certainly be not to your
benefit." Hebrews 13:17 NLT

The best analogy is that of a family, with the Elder as father. In my family,
everyone knew that, although he took into consideration what we kids said,
and even more consideration for what my Mom said, that in the end he was the
one who made the decision and my Mom and the kids obeyed -- like I do as the
Bride of Christ with Jesus as my head. I guess the authority structure of the
house church should be that of a family, if we are to be true to Scripture.

I know I kind of rambled, and this wasn't exactly a polished presentation. It
wasn't meant to be an academic paper covering all the angles -- I'm kinda
thinking "on my feet." I think it does conveys the main thrust of my
thoughts, though. I hope I have answered your questions, Stephanie, and I
welcome any criticisms or requests for clarification or just down right
disagreement! ;o)

God bless you tonight, Stephanie,

TC


------- <><><> -------


Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:36:42 +0200
From: "Deborah" <deborah.millier * juccampus>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] In what capacity, women elders?

A couple of comments/questions. Please note what I highlight in ALL CAPS
from the following NT passage:

"Teach the older men ..." (Tit. 2:2, Gk. PRESBUTAS-- obviously related in
form to the word used in Tit. 1:5, PRESBUTEROUS which refers to those whom
Titus was to *appoint* according to certain qualifications given by Paul
[Tit. 1:6ff] ... in other words, "older men" vs(?) "elders" proper, I
think.)

Now we continue in context:

"... Likewise, teach the OLDER WOMEN (Gk. PRESBUTIDAS) to be reverent in the
way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach
what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands
and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be
kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the
word of God" (Tit. 2:3-5).

Now anyone who is literate in English can still see that the Greek
masculine and feminine word forms for "older men" (PRESBUTAS) and "older
women" (PRESBUTIDAS) are related to each other ... and to the word for
"elder" (PRESBUTEROUS) in Titus 1. But my questions go a little deeper than
that:

1) If "elder" (Tit. 1:5ff) is *not* a church "office" per se (as many on
this list have asserted), then why the need for distinguishing
qualifications (Tit. 1:6-9; cp. 1 Tim. 3:1-7)? In apparent
contradistinction to Tit. 2:2, that is.

2) Related, but more to the point of this post, if "older women" in truth
means "women who are elders" (Sam B. mentioned "*APPOINT[ING]* female
elders"-- "What are apostles" thread, Aug. 15), then isn't their sphere of
teaching and authority somewhat defined by what Paul writes about them to
Titus, ...

"... to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love
their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at
home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will
malign the word of God" (Tit. 2:2-5).

... and limited by what he writes to Timothy?

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must
be silent" (1 Tim. 2:12ff).

Honest questions. Looking for honest answers/discussion.

Michael
Jerusalem


------- <><><> -------


Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 08:37:31 +0200
From: "Deborah" <deborah.millier * juccampus>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] What are apostles?

Ole T.C. thinks he can just write some provocative "stuff" on this list,
then fade back into lurker mode ... NOT! He wrote:

> In 1st century Greco-Roman world (or the
> Hebrew world -- "Tell us teacher, if a man
> can divorce his wife for any reason, must
> he give her a certificate of divorce?"), and
> in the writings of Paul, it is pretty easy to
> see without transcription that women were
> not allowed equal authority to men and that
> in the Church men and women were equal
> in salvation (neither male nor female) but
> had expressly different roles, i.e., Paul in
> Eph. using the roles a man and woman have
> in marriage to clarify a the Church's (Bride's)
> relationship/role to Christ (the Husband). We
> have a different sense of culture than those
> who wrote the NT, and we have a radically
> different idea of gender roles than the 1st C.

Well, well, well ... that certainly raises the question of whether we
are supposed to "sanctify" (... or do I mean "petrify?") 1st cent.
mediterranean culture-- which really was diverse as all get-out. Let's see,
we had the Latins, the Greeks, the Asians, the Syro-Phoenicians, the
Egyptians, ... oh and that biblically insignificant group (so prone to
cultural assimilation, I might add) called the Judaeans. Plus others.
Along with all their various subdivisions. But let's just play along.
T.C., just 'cause it was *done* that way back when the NT was written, does
that mean *we* have to do it that way in our particular settings?-- in our
modern and post-modern culture(s)? Must we share the same assumptions as
did the Gospel writers and Paul in relation to women, gender roles,
authority, and the Church to be truly biblical in our polity expressions?

Michael
Jerusalem
 


End of New Testament Church Planting Digest V2 #146< Previous Digest Next Digest >



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