New Testament Church Proliferation Digest


Spreading the Gospel via House Churches



NT Church Proliferation Digest Tuesday, September 3 2002 Volume 02 : Number 157
Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
RE: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
[NTCP] Re: Arian Heresy
Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
[NTCP] One Brother's Opinion
Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
RE: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
RE: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
RE: [NTCP] One Brother's Opinion
Re: [NTCP] Avian Heresy
Re: [NTCP] Women
Re: [NTCP] Avian Heresy
Re: [NTCP] Women
Re: [NTCP] Women


Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:02:46 -0400
From: David Anderson <david * housechurch>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy

Yea Link, there are several ways of looking at this. I have had some
moderation experience and can say that I HATE it because whatever you
decide you'll hear jangling voices ad infinitum. And the more jangling
there is, the more others will throw up their hands and leave. They will
contend the list should change it's name, having lost its focus. They're
right.

The internet is just too large to deal with everyone intent on peddling
their favorite false teaching. Such need to be removed from the list for
a long season - without discussion or appeal - as far as I am concerned.
Otherwise, they will do to this list exactly what foreign terrorists are
now doing to our court system in northern VA. One outburst and appeal
after another, just as we have seen in Federal Court as terrorist are
tried and civil libertarians and greedy lawyers do there best to delay
and confuse.

Did you notice the writer from a day or two ago who stated that "he only
had time to skim the messages?" That's likely the case for most of us.

The apostles, btw, were pretty intolerant of false teachings and false
teachers.

David Anderson


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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:33:41 -0400
From: "Richard Wright" <wright47 * sc.rr>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] Arian Heresy

Link,

It would seem that crossing over the line between discussion and
promotion would be the place to start. While this will be somewhat
subjective, we need to trust your judgment and motives as moderator in
maintaining the lists integrity.

A personal note to the offending party, then if the heresy continues,
removal from the list.

Blessings,

Dick
Phil.3:12-14


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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 10:47:42 -0400
From: Marti Grahl <nestmom * nestmom>
Subject: [NTCP] Re: Arian Heresy

At 10:02 AM 9/2/02 -0400, David Anderson wrote:
>Did you notice the writer from a day or two ago who stated that "he only
>had time to skim the messages?" That's likely the case for most of us.

I mentioned that yesterday, and it's true. I also moderate several business
and discussion lists, so I know a little bit about maintaining the balance
between healthy discussion and meaningless diatribe.

My thought is that the poster hasn't made any effort to do more than
promote the questioned teaching, so "discussion" doesn't seem to be the
point. I think that in this case, removing the poster might be appropriate.
Marti
Wife to Chris, and mom to Emilee, Rachel, Katie, and Becky
Smithsburg, MD
"Unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as unquestioned answers"


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Date: 02 Sep 2002 10:55:47 -0400
From: Mike Sangrey <msangrey * BlueFeltHat>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy

On Mon, 2002-09-02 at 09:28, forwarded wrote:

>
> As moderator, I need to make a decision on an issue in the forum. NTCP is
> not designed to be a place to promote heresy. Arian and Ebionite doctrine
> have long been recognized as heresies by the church. On the other hand,
> discussion of the nature of the Godhead, and how to teach it, is on topic
> for a church planting forum.
>
> I would like input from others on the forum about how you would like to
> deal
> with the issue of discussing such issues on this forum.
>
> Link Hudson,
> Marion, NC, USA
> (forum moderator.)

Interesting question.

I co-moderate a Bible translation list. And, as you can probably
imagine, the issue of "where to draw the line" comes up. Bible
translation is a LOT more than just "look up word, write down word".
Many people do not realize that it is impossible to not interpret when
one translates; it's a fundamental fact of inter-lingual (and even
intra-lingual) communication. Ya have to know what it means in order to
write the receptor language in a way so that the new audience can get
what it means. (Yes, this raises a bunch of questions, but, what can I
say, that's what a Bible translation email list is for! <smile>)

Anyway, all that to say that one needs to discuss the meaning of a
passage in order to translate it and you probably can see that would
raise the question of when are we on list charter and when aren't we.
And that's your question.

As a moderator, I've maintained the notion of "which direction is the
discussion pointed?" This gives the needed flexibility while
maintaining the overall purpose of the list. To address the topic of
Avian heresy, is the discussion about how the nature of God is involved
in a church planting context, or is it about the nature of God itself?

As moderator, this means I have to make judgment calls periodically.
Sometimes it very well may be simply arbitrary on my part. But I think
the group understands the issue when I come on-line and say, "OK, let's
keep in mind this forum is not a general Christian discussion list. It
needs to focus on the list's charter. So, I think one way to bring this
back is to..."

Hope that helps in some small way.

Mike Sangrey
msangrey * BlueFeltHat
Landisburg, Pa.
"The first one last wins."
"A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."


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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:03:24 -0400
From: Bruce P Gordon <b-egordon * juno>
Subject: [NTCP] One Brother's Opinion

Dear Link & List,

An opinion from a brother who works full time,
has a young family, and is starting a new house church
here in the stony ground of New England.

I am one of those who has to quickly scan most,
browse a few, and read a very few.

I'd like to see more focus on isses directly
related to the theory & practice of planting
churches on a NT basis.
This is the reason I'm here.

General theology topics and
general ecclesiology topics,
general pastoral ministry topics, IMO,
have a multitude of forums themselves.

There aren't a lot of places for NTCP
issues & practice to be discussed.

I favor giving our moderators
wide latitude to keep things on track
and deal with the inevitable tendency
of lists to stray.
I'm also waiting for our dear brother
Jim Rutz to weigh in with his thoughts.
Blessings on you all,

Bruce


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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 11:06:09 EDT
From: Steffasong * aol
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy

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From Link

>
> I would like input from others on the forum about how you would like to
> deal
> with the issue of discussing such issues on this

There will always be those bringing in a strange wind of false teaching,
empty philosophy, and vain deceit. The Word is clear about what to do in
these cases. Steer clear. Avoid. Do not even entertain it.

If some on the list have the heart, grace, and calling to go head to head
with the one promoting heresy, they should do it off list. NTCP is available
to discuss the mighty and divine purpose of planting and nurturing THE CHURCH
of Jesus Christ in the Earth.

In all of the nuance, cultural diversity, and challenging issues that are
involved in discussing the church, I think we (NTCP) have enough on our
plate.

Just my two cents,
Steph

Stephanie Bennett
Creative Services & Consulting
<A HREF="http://members.aol/steffasong/index.html">Marketing Solutions for the 21st Century</A>
steffasong * aol

If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he
hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however
measured or far away.

Henry David Thoreau, Walden, Conclusion, 1854


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Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 11:38:34 -0400
From: AOM Canada <aom_canada * hotmail>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy

Dear Link:

The list appears to be digressing into the realm of deeper and more
controversial theology.

The stuff now being discussed I feel really has no place on the NTCP list.
The list should be restricted to matters of church planting and if it is
theological in tone then it should be restricted to eclessiology abd body
life and the actual practice of church planting. Enough straying, let's put
on some restrictions here.

Thanks,

Sam


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Date: 02 Sep 2002 11:50:11 -0400
From: Mike Sangrey <msangrey * BlueFeltHat>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] Arian Heresy

On Mon, 2002-09-02 at 10:33, Richard Wright wrote:
<snip>
> A personal note to the offending party, then if the heresy continues,
> removal from the list.

and

Marti Grahl <nestmom * nestmom> wrote:
> My thought is that the poster hasn't made any effort to do more than
> promote the questioned teaching, so "discussion" doesn't seem to be the
> point. I think that in this case, removing the poster might be
> appropriate.

and

David Anderson <david * housechurch> wrote:
> The apostles, btw, were pretty intolerant of false teachings and false
> teachers.

I'm emailing back and forth with a person who has done extensive
research on 2 Cor. He suggests that Paul wrote a letter between 1st and
2nd Cor. which said, essentially, "God will judge you severely if you do
not expel the wicked person, but I have pleaded to suffer on your
behalf. (kinda like Moses in Ex. 32:31-32 and Paul in Rom. 9:1-3." With
that as a possible backdrop, read 2 Cor. 1:3-11 (note vs 6). Even read
the whole letter; it's quite an insight, IMO.

So, yes, the apostles were intolerant, just like Jesus. But they also
were willing to take the pain on themselves, just like Jesus. Reminds
of: it was at Antioch that the believers were first called "little
Messiahs" (cf Acts 11:26). And also, Phil, 3:7-21. Again, in that
context there is this association between "enemies of the Cross" and
"sharing in his sufferings."

Now, on a more practical, but very related, note: It appears you use
`majordomo'. I think you can moderate individuals with majordomo. If
that's the case, then what you can do is tweak the flag for a given
individual who appears to be stepping over the list guidelines. Then,
their posts will have to be approved by you on an individual basis. If
the person gets obstinate, well, so long. If they come under the
guidelines, then you've won a person with a different perspective which,
in fact, may be helpful. If they become a problem again, you can deal
with the issue in the same way. You will want to escalate things. But,
ISTM, you will want to bear the pain for them so as to win them.

In short, you have a responsibility not only to the entire subscriber
base, but also to the person failing to follow list guidelines. Cutting
them off is not the way of the cross, though they may cut themselves off
by not submitting to the guidelines. That's not your fault, though.

O!, BTW, you should document what those list guidelines are if you
haven't. That way you can say, "Hey, you've broken guideline 3 which
says..." That helps keep things more objective and less subjective. If
you can point to a guideline which says "no heresies allowed" then that
becomes somewhat easier (though the "where to draw the line syndrome"
NEVER goes away). On the Bible translation list we disallow KJV-Onlyism
since it nearly always erupts into a fight. Also, a plurality of
moderators helps objectivity; I think you have that already.
Mike Sangrey
msangrey * BlueFeltHat
Landisburg, Pa.
"The first one last wins."
"A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."


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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 18:33:55 +0200
From: "Keith Smith" <castillofuerte * airtel>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] Arian Heresy
Link,
this list is a good broad forum, and I have been blessed by the variety of
discussion, most of which has some bearing on church-planting issues. I just
couldnít believe my eyes when I saw the posts. I think my replies echoed
that. I think that this list is not the place for discussion of heresy, and
even controversial doctrines (like women in the ministry) have to be kept
within bounds. But I do feel very strongly that we shouldnít reject folk out
of hand. Yes this person should be ejected from the list, but should he
genuinely be seeking the truth, I for one would be more than willing to
entertain an off list correspondence with him. Needless to say, I would not
be interested in just hearing his regurgitation of false doctrine. SEEKERS
YES,FALSE TEACHERS NO.
keep up the good work Link!
Blessings
Keith


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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 15:01:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Vanessa DiDomenico <van3hijos * yahoo>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Arian Heresy

I say such heresies show that a person is not qualified to be on this
list, if he expects us to learn from him. But, if that person is here to
learn the TRUTH, then we must accept the weak, but not to discuss their
heresies with them.

Vanessa


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Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 18:24:08 -0400
From: "Richard Wright" <wright47 * sc.rr>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] One Brother's Opinion

Bruce,

Excuse the intrusion, but I am from Vermont originally, now living in
South Carolina. Where in "stony" New England do you live?

Blessings,

Dick
Phil.3:12-14


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Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 01:58:04 EDT
From: JAMESRUTZ * cs
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Avian Heresy

In a message dated 9/2/2002 8:56:31 AM Mountain Standard Time,
msangrey * BlueFeltHat writes:
> To address the topic of Avian heresy, is the discussion about how the nature
> of God is involved in a church planting context, or is it about the nature
> of God itself?
>
Dear Mike,

Hmm, an Avian heresy. Sounds like a doctrine that's for the birds.

Jim Rutz
Colorado Springs


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Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 08:28:40 EDT
From: Steffasong * aol
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Women

> Vanessa wrote:
WHo says we need 'leadership possitions' to do more than the leaders?

>>

She makes a good point.

For that matter, though, .... who says men OR women need leadership
positions? We need not the title to obey God. If God speaks and calls us to
do a 'leaderish' type activity, HE will pave the way ahead of us. He will
provide the means and the grace.

A leader is known because they lead. They lead in service, in humility, in
grace, and in pointing the way to Jesus. A leader is a leader and can't 'get
out of it' whether or not they are titled. It matters not whether it is a
woman or man, --- what matters is that they are obeying the Voice of the
Lord. If the Voice is obeyed, it matters not what anyone else says or
recognizes.

Praise the Lamb for deliverance from the fear of Man.
God is GOOD!
In the Lamb,
Stephanie Bennett


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Date: 03 Sep 2002 09:12:21 -0400
From: Mike Sangrey <msangrey * BlueFeltHat>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Avian Heresy

On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 01:58, JAMESRUTZ * cs wrote:
> In a message dated 9/2/2002 8:56:31 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> msangrey * BlueFeltHat writes:
> > To address the topic of Avian heresy, is the discussion about how the nature
> > of God is involved in a church planting context, or is it about the nature
> > of God itself?
> >
> Dear Mike,
>
> Hmm, an Avian heresy. Sounds like a doctrine that's for the birds.

Announcement:

Mike Sangrey was laid to rest this morning, having died laughing.
<laugh>

Wasn't Isis a bird-like god? Yeah, that's it. <chuckle>

This reminds me of the email article I wrote referring to the diachronic
and synchronic entomology of words. Perhaps the entomology...errr...
etymology article...ummmmm...fed...into the avian...errrr...Arian
heresy!

You know, sometimes spell checkers just aren't enough.

Mike Sangrey
msangrey * BlueFeltHat
Landisburg, Pa.
"The first one last wins."
"A net of highly cohesive details reveals the truth."


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Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:00:41 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Women

Steffasong * aol wrote:

>>
>> Vanessa wrote
>
> WHo says we need 'leadership possitions' to do more than the leaders?
>
> >>
>
> She makes a good point.
>
> For that matter, though, .... who says men OR women need leadership
> positions? We need not the title to obey God. If God speaks and
> calls us to do a 'leaderish' type activity, HE will pave the way ahead
> of us. He will provide the means and the grace.
>
> A leader is known because they lead. They lead in service, in
> humility, in grace, and in pointing the way to Jesus. A leader is a
> leader and can't 'get out of it' whether or not they are titled. It
> matters not whether it is a woman or man, --- what matters is that
> they are obeying the Voice of the Lord. If the Voice is obeyed, it
> matters not what anyone else says or recognizes.

Dear Stephanie,

I think the problem is not the need for title where the one who is
functioning in a position is concerned. Rather, I believe that, "elders"
for instance, were ordained or appointed in places where The Lord had
raised them up, so that the younger ones would know who to go to in the
event of a difficulty or conflict in fellowship with other believers.
Again, Pastors need to look up, not down to find elders. Most of the
time, elders are needed to clear up conflicts with pastors, and their
adherents.

Presumably the more mature believers in any given place are able to know
others after the Spirit rather than after the flesh. It is the young
ones who have a problem in that connection.

Where pastors are concerned, there tends to be a problem with
competition which tears the body apart, and authentic elders are badly
needed to deal with that problem. This is not a gender problem so much
as a Gentile style of reigning problem. Women who posture according to
the role models that men have created, become as much of a problem as
the men already are.

Yours in Christ,

Jay


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Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:17:19 EDT
From: TheologusCrucis * cs
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Women
Stephanie,

I think your on to something!

>>A leader is known because they lead. They lead in service, in humility, in
grace, and in pointing the way to Jesus. A leader is a leader and can't 'get
out of it' whether or not they are titled. It matters not whether it is a
woman or man, --- what matters is that they are obeying the Voice of the
Lord. If the Voice is obeyed, it matters not what anyone else says or
recognizes.<<

I think a true leader and True leadership has nothing to do with the cult of
personality. I work in a kitchen, and for the first time in a long time I
have worked with a leader who is actually "officially" in charge. It has been
a strange experience, as I have never "pastored" (read entry-level managed)
with someone who was actually a leader.

What makes this guy a leader is not his personality, although it is an
integral part of his leadership skill, but is his sense of fairness and team
mindedness. The job, the task, is still the end, but he doesn't devalue peole
to accomplish that task. He is first to do any task, including, shudder, the
dishes! And he is unfailing in treating people with respect. He expects
everyone to help out everyone else. And let me tell you, most of us would
step into traffic for this guy! And not because he is in charge "officially."

I used to work in a Borders bookstore. The business section was always full
of the latest leadership books. They always, without fail, emphasized the
task or the system and viewed people as the means to the end, i.e., the
product produced or the system efficient. The two main Enlightenment
architects, Thomas Jefferson and Voltaire, saw humanism and rationalism as
working hand in glove, but the 20th C proved them wrong -- rationalism will
always destroy humanism. My guy, the leader in my kitchen, is ALWAYS in
trouble with our dept. head because she has been trained to preserve the
system and produce a product at the expense of the "human resources" that are
the employees.

In Titus and Timothy it seems that Paul assumes that God would gift men with
the leadership ability to be Elders and Deacons and to place men and women to
be the gifts to the church that apostles, evangelists, prophets, and
shepherd/teaches are in maturing and equipping the rest of the assembly to do
the work of God. How much more should the leader in a church be than my chef
friend in a kitchen! They are to point to someone beyond them, someone bigger
than them. They are to lead by example, and ask people to follow them as they
follow Christ -- which requires doctrinal knowledge plus the ability to walk
in the Spirit in their actions.

Hmmm... It makes you think of what could be, how is should be, doesn't it?
Blessings to you, Stephanie,

TC


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