NT Church Proliferation Digest Sunday, September 8 2002 Volume 02 : Number 161
Re: [NTCP] Jesus not God but as a god and as the Word of Salvation
Re: [NTCP] Components of proper church meetings
[NTCP] Re: NT Church Proliferation Digest V2 #160
Re: [NTCP] Post-scriptum
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 08:40:09 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Jesus not God but as a god and as the Word of Salvation
TheologusCrucis * cs <mailto:TheologusCrucis * cs> wrote:
> I will not form or join myself to another believer or a group of
> believers unless they believe that their worship on the Lord's day
> (whichever day that happens to be ;o) is a time for covenant renewal,
> with community life flowing from that worship.
In rereading what you sent, It struck me that there was one other thing
to which I needed to respond: Jesus only said the things the Father
said, only did the things the Father did, and only had the one the
Father gave Him. Now for us, this same Jesus has become both Lord and
Christ. Of all the things He's Lord of, relationship is perhaps the most
important. So it is very important for us to be very careful about "I
will... " and "I will not... " statements.
Thanks again for the rest.
Yours in Christ,
Ampe Pronk wrote:
>Jay uttered a nice remark:Perhaps even more importantly for the substance of
>our faith is the fact
>>that, ONLY A NEW BIRTH WHICH RESULTS FROM THE IMPLANTATION OF A DIVINE
>>SEED HAS THE POWER TO MAKE US PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE. "A SLAVE
>>HAS NO PERMANENT PLACE IN THE FAMILY, BUT A SON IS PART OF IT FOREVER."
>>JESUS IS THAT SON; JESUS IS THAT SEED.
>It says all.
>And it is that seed we have to let grow in us. For a church planting the
>openness to people of different "doctrines" is very important. The sharing
>of thoughts, when based on the Bible, shall make the Church grow. Nobody
>cutting out shall make that we shall be able to give and to receive from all
>who want to share their thoughts. It shall not restrict people to a small
>group who just like to hear what they are saying.
I guess by now you are aware that your understanding of The Person of
Jesus Christ has caused some concern on this list. I have pretty much
stayed out of that discussion to this point, but you haven kind enough
to drag me into it. your endorsement, together with the perception in
some quarters that my doctrine is already somewhat beyond the pail,
invite, nay, urge me to respond.
First, I would like to make things very clear about "THE SEED". Perhaps
that will help you to understand that Jesus is indeed GOD.
There is a legal aspect to adoption. You can't just go around picking up
any child you want. It has to be legal. In God, our Father's case, until
the sacrifice of Jesus, it would have been illegal to adopt any of us,
for all have sinned and come short of the right to live in The Father's
house. So, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son. That got
us in the door by the blood of Jesus, by adoption, having gotten rid of
the legal obstacles to our being included. and because we were now
qualified by the blood of Christ for adoption, and, in fact, adopted by
our faith in Christ, and His sacrifice for us, God was then able to send
the very spirit of his Son into our hearts, without which there is no
supernatural heart's cry of "Abba, Father". That heart's cry only
happens at the moment of the new birth, when we actually become
partakers of the divine nature, when we are actually born from above by
the incorruptible seed of Christ. Everything short of that is only the
drawing of the Father, but not yet the new birth. The "drawing"
precedes the impregnation.
The seed necessary for that impregnation was not available until the day
of Pentecost. Until Jesus died, there was only one seed. It was the seed
of Eve, and God watched over it all through human history making sure
that it never died until it died in Jesus. The seed was always passed
along prior to the death of its carrier. It finally gave birth to Jesus,
and in Him it died. It was the seed of the woman, but without the
intervention of a man, it gave birth to the last Adam. In other words,
that Seed was made God on His Fathers side. "Fully man", and uniquely
"Fully God". We was the God Seed, only one. As such, He has become the
source or progenitor of a new race. That's us. "If any man be in Christ
he is a new creation..."
Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall
into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth
forth much fruit." John 12:24
It takes more than, just planting a seed to multiply it, it has to cycle
through death, and come up out of the ground as fruit, because only in
the fruit is the multiplied seed.
"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,
and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in
itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth
grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding
fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw hat it was
Only in the resurrection did the fruit come into existence. Jesus
resurrection was the first fruit from among the dead.
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of
them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the
first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." I
But, before the seed in that fruit could be made available to others, it
had to be presented to the Father. Only then could God deliver on His
promise. Only then did the "promise of the Father" become available.
That promise was poured out on flesh on the day of Pentecost. It was
poured out on those He had adopted by faith, their faith, given by Him.
and because they had been adopted, God sent the spirit of His Son into
their hearts whereby they cried out "Abba".
This to say, before the baptism of the Holy Spirit, there might have
been legal adoption, but there was no new birth. If this understanding
is correct, the implications for "the church" in our own day are far
As I understand it, human cloning does not require the seed of a Father.
Is it possible that a "christianity" that stops short of the baptism of
the Holy Spirit, is after all, just religious cloning without any
authentic new birth?
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons
of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of
blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of
God." John 1:12,13
"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea,
and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8
Were they His before Pentecost? Yes they were: "I have manifested thy
name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they
were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." John 17:6
As "For a church planting..." only Jesus can build His Church. The best we can do is plant seeds, and water them. It is up to Jesus to make a Church out of them.
As for church growth, it grows as God causes it to grow. God gives the increase.
>Trying to commute with each other, we have to preach the Word. By opening
>the Home to everybody,
That's how I started out. I had to learn the hard way, what happens when
we ignore: II John 10,11: "If there come any unto you, and bring not
this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God
speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."
That's strong talk, and it is not pleasant in its implementation.
As for the rest of what you wrote in this email, there is much that is
true, and, imo, much that is confusion, perhaps too much intellect, and
not enough the Spirit of Christ.
------- <><><> -------
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:59:06 -0400
From: "Paul Hudson Jr." <Linkh * mcdowell.main.nc.us>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Components of proper church meetings
Michael Millier wrote,
> And ... I've got to ask: were
> you emphasizing the word/concept "spontaneous" so many times (I counted--
> including the phrase "spur of the moment-- 4 times ) just to get my goat?
> You know that we've already covered that ground and that the *evidence*
> suggests that NT churches had structure to contain their "spontaneity".
I once sent a message addressed to you, if I am not mistaken on this forum,
that there are commands to the church in scripture that involve a degree of
'spontaneity' but that I was unaware of any that commanded involved liturgy.
I don't recall a reply to this particular point. Let me quote the verse I
1 Corinthians 14:29-32
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
In I Corinthians 14, the most in-depth passage on church meetings, Paul
emphasizes the importance of prophecy in the meeting. Here we see evidence
for spontaneity in prophecy. Notice verse 30. One sitting by could
spontaniously (sp?) get a prophecy. The instructions found in these verses
are dependant on the spontaniousnesss of the Spirit's operation.
On the other hand, I don't see any commands to have planned liturgy in
church meetings. On the other hand, the Bible doesn't command us to be
spontanious about everything. Some people treat spontenaity as if it were
the central principle of church meetings. I think it can go too far, with
the church not making room for planned teaching and Bible study. Could you
imagine a house church that didn't schedule a meeting, and decided to just
wait for the Lord to lead them all to the same house to have a meeting? I
heard about that happening under severe persecution, but I don't think it is
the norm for church.
So while I don't think we have to be completely spontanious about
everyuthing, I do see a scriptural case for a degree of spontaneity in the
meetings, and I see no commands telling us to plan the meeting out. Can you
present some evidence that such things are _commanded_ for us brother
------- <><><> -------
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2002 12:27:41 EDT
From: JoelBRJr * aol
Subject: [NTCP] Re: NT Church Proliferation Digest V2 #160
As Jay said:
> "A SLAVE
> > HAS NO PERMANENT PLACE IN THE FAMILY, BUT A SON IS PART OF IT FOREVER."
> > John 8:35
> > JESUS IS THAT SON; JESUS IS THAT SEED.
I would also like to remind that John 15:15 gives us another position in the
family of God: "No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know
what his master is doing; but I have called you friends..."
Being a friend to Christ is another great benefit for He is a friend that
sticks closer than a brother! (Proverbs 18:24)
------- <><><> -------
Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 13:41:52 +0200
From: "Ampe Pronk" <marcusampe * tiscalinet.be>
Subject: [NTCP] Post-scriptum
In my previous writings I gave perhaps a wrong idea, therefore this
I am a choreographer-choreologist, working in a State Art School, as teacher
of dance (classical & modernjazz ballet). My name is really Marcus Ampe and
I am married to Marjolein Pronk.
I did not use an other name, as some off your correspondents do (even having
a girls and a males name, or doing if they live somewhere else).
As a believer I sincerely wanted to grow in my believes, and thought of your
organization as one where people would have the sincere intension to talk
about their believes, and how they are trying to make it possible to have
the Church of God grow, and not their own thinking.
Though, strange enough, I came in contact with persons who rather fancied
themselves, and felt if I wanted to confront them in a bad way with my
ideas. A very significant sign was that I became confronted with attacks
from people who say that they are Christians.
In my endeavors to spread the Good News, and my search of people who could
be of help to evangelize in Flemish Belgium, I had contacted the Home Church
movement in the States, because we are trying to get some home churches of
the ground in the Low Countries.
But as soon as my non-Trinitarian ideas came to the surface I received very
unchristian letters (reproaches, dirty and foul language, even viruses where
send to me).
In West Europe non Trinitarians are in the minority, but are shunned and
deprived of cooperation and material. I had hoped to find more sincere
organizations, who are really concerned to bring the Word of God to the
people, but found that even in the "New World" organizations seem to be
build up with members who only like to have to hear their ears kittled.
Witnessing also on the internet, having such awful reactions, I nearly felt
like quitting those activities. On the other hand, I think I have to go on
and would love to find other people who want to inquire into the Word of
God, to fulfill the will of YHWH, Jehovah or Yahweh, the Only God who has
sent His Son to Save us.? Norrrrrmally you should think all Christians would
like to show that they accept Jesus of Nazareth as their Savior, and that
they count on it that Christ the Messiah restored our relationship with God.
It is a pity, we still feel today that a lot of preachers, priests, pastors,
etc. do not show us the good example of stepping in the footsteps of Jesus
Considering me, being a non-Tinitarian Baptist, as a member of the Church
of God, with Jesus Christ as cornerstone, I sincerely try to contribute
one's mite, and therefore I have connections with other believers of other
denominations, whom try to set up good working Homechurches. From there my
interest in NTCP.
Please, do not understand me wrong, I tell you all this to give you an idea
how we can be confronted with a battle of frustration, which would give the
impression that the Church of God is a divided church with no future.No, it
has a lot of possibilities in the good sense! I hope Back to the Bible,
e-Sword, the Online Bible, Net-Bible and just a few others who want to bring the Bible in the forefront
shall succeed to let the people get in contact with the Word of God.
Being handicapped with our body, or being hurt psychological, does not mean
we have to be handicapped in our believes and in our efforts to do our work
for God in the love of Christ!
I do hope, coming closer to the end of times, that all Christians of all
those schisms, would reach each other their hands, and join the people of
the Kingdom of God.
I shall pray that we all shall find guidance to fulfill our duties in the
right way, and that God may safeguard us against evil.
Concerning this, I wanted to let you know that there are persons on your
side with not such good intensions, who even send viruses or try to enter
the computer of people who utter an other idea as they do, or is it perhaps
that those honest people could be a danger to them that they become
unmasked?. I want to let you know that 4 messages where placed in quarantine
by my Safety program, which also give twice an alarm and shut the system,
because someone not authorized wanted to enter the system.
All this disappointed me very much,
In the love of Christ,
~ ~ ~ ntcp info page: http://world-missions/planting ~ ~ ~
info page: http://world-missions.org/planting <><><>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 09:28:39 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] Post-scriptum
Ampe Pronk wrote:
>But as soon as my non-Trinitarian ideas came to the surface I received very
>unchristian letters (reproaches, dirty and foul language, even viruses where
>send to me).
As I understand the issue, and I admit perhaps I don't fully understand
it, the problem is not so much a conflict between Trinitarian and
non-Trinitarian, but whether or not Jesus is GOD. I believe that is the
line of demarcation between Christianity and non-Christ centered
religions, including cults. The irreducible minimum hallmark of a cult
is that it makes Jesus Christ less than God. While some of them claim to
be Christian, Historically Christianity disowns anything that makes
Jesus less than God. There may be room for a discussion of that issue,
but it typically does not go on within the Christian community, because
that community is based on Jesus being God, Emmanuel. In any case, It is
not likely to be a subject of interest for this list as I understand it.
I don't believe that you have been rejected, but the position that Jesus
is not fully God and fully man, must be rejected.
As for "Jesus of Nazareth", once He was known that way, but we know Him that way no longer. A Christian is one who knows Him after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.
End of New Testament Church Proliferation Digest V2 #161 < Previous Digest Next Digest >