New Testament Church Proliferation Digest


Spreading the Gospel via House Churches


NT Church Proliferation Digest Saturday, October 26 2002 Volume 02 : Number 189
Re: [NTCP] His walk, our walk
Re: [NTCP]: Question -- What's the Water?
[NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church
Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church
Re: [NTCP] His walk, our walk
Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church
Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church
Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church
Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church
RE: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church
[NTCP] You're Invited to Share
Re: [NTCP] His walk, our walk

Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:56:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Henneberger <jchenn1213 * yahoo>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] His walk, our walk

This really grieves me. I think we are missing the
point here. Yes, Israel has stumbled, but don't we
see the greater truth?

Rom 11:8-19
"God has given them a spirit of stupor,Eyes that they
should not see And ears that they should not hear,To
this very day."

9 And David says:

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,A stumbling
block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be
darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their
back always."

<<<<< BUT!!! And it's a big one >>>>>> My Remark

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should
fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to
provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the
Gentiles. 12 Now if THEIR FALL IS RICHES FOR THE
WORLD, and THEIR FAILURE RICHES FOR THE GENTILES, how
much more their fullness! 13 For I SPEAK TO YOU
GENTILES; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles,
I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may
provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save
some of them. 15 For IF THEIR BEING CAST AWAY IS THE
RECONCILING OF THE WORLD, WHAT WILL THEIR ACCEPTANCE
BE BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD? 16 For if the firstfruit is
holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy,
so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches
were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree,
were grafted in among them, and with them became a
partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18
do not boast against the branches. But if you DO NOT
BOAST, REMEMBER that you do not support the root, but
THE ROOT SUPPORTS YOU.

NKJV

There fall is our salvation ... their reconcilation a
blessed event. They fell for us... and even that
folds into God's design. We ought to be exceptionally
careful in our dealings with them (Jews). After all,
we are not the natural branches. There is a mystery
here...one Paul chides us as Gentiles to understand.
We do well to heed the warning.

Peace

John


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Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:21:27 +0000
From: goodwordusa * att
Subject: Re: [NTCP]: Question -- What's the Water?

Hi, Michael.

Jim Sutton, here.

I am always interested in what the Church has to say on anything. So, sure,
shoot some more early evidence if you have time. The argument, so far, is
compelling that early believers associated water baptism with John 3:5

But another question comes up, regarding your post.

Why would Nicodemus immediately go to the idea of a gentile being purified by
water, when John the Baptist was out there calling all israel to repent and be
baptized, and even the Lord Jesus was having people baptized? Was not the call
to Israel to avoid the judgment to come -- which did certainly come on
Jerusalem?

Luke quotes John the Baptist, saying:
ì...and do not begin to say to yourselves, ëWe have Abraham as our father.í For
I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these
stones. 9ìAnd even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every
tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.î
(Luke 3:8 & 9)

And again Luke records this:
(Jesus said) ìFor I say to you, among those born of women there is not a
greater prophet than John the Baptist..." And when all the people heard Him,
even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of
John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the purpose of God for
themselves, not having been baptized by him. (Luke 7:28-30)

Why would Nicodemus not simply see that Jesus was telling him that he too
needed to repent, as did all of sinful Israel? That in fact, all have sinned...

Jim


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Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 19:34:04 +0000
From: goodwordusa * att
Subject: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church

Ok, here's another dumb question.

I apologize right now, because I'm sure this has been talked about and argued
about to no end. But I am running into some believers who reject the Bible as
God's primary authority in the Church.

We all know that God speaks in Scripture, and that He also speaks by the
Scriptures (the Scriptures being the Bible). And we know that God speaks to
each of us in many ways. I believe the witness of the assembled Church is also
important.

But is the Bible considered by many of you to be the primary "established" and
unchanging Word of God? Does it carry more authority than any other writing?
Does it have more authority in the Church than dreams and visions, words of
prophecy, etc.

For me, the Bible carries the ultimate authority in the Church. And this is
granting that some people will try to twist the Scriptures around to say what
they want, and so on. But is not Scripture our final authority, as God uses it
to speak to all our hearts?

Should I just go ahead and prepare for flogging right now?

Jim


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Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 16:17:08 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church

Jim wrote:

>For me, the Bible carries the ultimate authority in the Church. And this is
>granting that some people will try to twist the Scriptures around to say what
>they want, and so on. But is not Scripture our final authority, as God uses it
>to speak to all our hearts?
>
>Should I just go ahead and prepare for flogging right now?
>
Dear Jim,

I'm with you, with or without a "flogging". I hate to think of where we
would be if we had to depend on the institutional church for the final
say on faith and practice. The institutional church seems to major on
halfway houses, when God wants to establish an all the way house.

Yours in Christ,

Jay


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Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 22:21:08 -0400
From: David Anderson <david * housechurch>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] His walk, our walk

>This really grieves me. I think we are missing the
>point here. Yes, Israel has stumbled, but don't we
>see the greater truth?

Hi John,

What exactly really grieves you? I am merely attempting to quote the
Bible in a coherent manner.

I just stated in unmistakable terms that Israel was, is, and shall be
central to God's redemptive purposes, Jew and Gentile. You write as if
you are bringing new information to the discussion.

Please clarify the reason for your grief. Thanks.

David Anderson


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 08:39:13 -0400
From: "Peter Burritt" <pburritt * sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church

Jim:

The Bible is the written word of God for us.

I'm frustrated in my church. I have preached that concept as well as
practiced it, but as I sit as a laymen now I wonder because the Bible Study
in church is done as third person information

Almost as if, if anyone opened it and studied it, they wouldn't
understand...It's got to be from Swindoll or Chuck colson, or Charles
Stanley or somebody

I'm not against the word spoken by the Spirit through others, we just don'e
hear good expositional preaching anymore and that's why so many christians
in the West are babes in christ,,,only with milk not able to handle meat

Another pet peeve I have is churches,,,including house churches that proof
text their way to support their program, rather than what is God saying
here, and how then shall we live??

Peter


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:25:40 +0000
From: goodwordusa * att
Subject: Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church

Hi, Brother Peter.

I agree that expositional preaching is both good for us and very important in
the Church. And I also agree that too few of us are sitting alone with God
each day (or as often as is possible) and hearing from him as we spend time in
the Scriptures.

My own life once became very weak, and my faith fell apart as a result of never
spending time alone with the Lord -- both in His Word (the Bible) and in
prayerful communion. How can we say we walk with Jesus if we're never alone
with Him?

As you say, there's a huge difference between "proof-text" knowledge of
Scripture and growing in our understanding of God's will. One is empty and
mostly usesless. The other is powerful and life-changing.

And I do believe the Lord has much to say to each of us everyday. I, for one,
know that I cannot get through a day without His direct help. I need Him.

Thanks for the input, Bro.

Jim
> Jim:
>
> The Bible is the written word of God for us.
>
> I'm frustrated in my church. I have preached that concept as well as
> practiced it, but as I sit as a laymen now I wonder because the Bible Study
> in church is done as third person information
>
> Almost as if, if anyone opened it and studied it, they wouldn't
> understand...It's got to be from Swindoll or Chuck colson, or Charles
> Stanley or somebody
>
> I'm not against the word spoken by the Spirit through others, we just don't
> hear good expositional preaching anymore and that's why so many christians
> in the West are babes in christ,,,only with milk not able to handle meat
>
> Another pet peeve I have is churches,,,including house churches that proof
> text their way to support their program, rather than what is God saying
> here, and how then shall we live??
>
> Peter


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:30:56 -0400
From: jferris <jferris154 * mac>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church

Peter Burritt wrote:

>Almost as if, if anyone opened it and studied it, they wouldn't
>understand...It's got to be from Swindoll or Chuck colson, or Charles
>Stanley or somebody
>
Dear Peter,

Jesus was born of a virgin, and it seems He is always born of a virgin.
Those who were the firstfruits of His death and resurrection were also
chaste virgins, yet those who met then were able to discern that they
had been with Jesus. Even in our own day, the day of the larger harvest,
it remains clear whether we have been with a man of whether we have been
with Jesus.

Yours in Christ,

Jay

~ ~ ~ ntcp info page: http://world-missions/planting ~ ~ ~
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:49:26 +0000
From: goodwordusa * att
Subject: Re: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church

Hi, Jay.

I know I sometimes react too quickly and too strongly to the things other
people say. But I was concerned about a trend in some places of "getting away
from the Scriptures." There are some who are content to leave the Bible
behind -- as no longer needed.

I also know that some folks spend too much time beating each other up with
Bible verses. There is more to any godly faith than quoting Scriptures. There
is much more than the academic side of Bible study to our walk with Jesus
Christ.

But God has been gracious enough to give us a written word from heaven -- a
work that was centuries in the making. And I believe we do well to pay heed to
what God has revealed about Himself through the Bible.

I also realize that God works in each of our lives according to the way He made
us to function. Some believers will be more moved and inspired by music,
others more preoccupied with practical activities (such as helping neighbors),
and still others will be more devoted to the study and sharing of Scripture --
maybe even teaching or preaching. And so it makes sense to me that some local
gatherings might also lean more this way or that, when it comes to the place of
Scripture in each meeting.

But I also hope that as believers mingle together and share together, the good
work that God Himself is doing in each of us in and through Jesus Christ, will
kind of rub off on each other. Those satisfied just to be in the Word may also
become more inclined to spend time with a neighbor, and those who are mostly
practical-minded will be able to grow in the Word, and that all of us may be
more and more apt to worship the Lord in our music, in personal study, in
fellowship, in good works, and so on.

I believe that we all need all that God has for His people. And I see Holy
Scripture as one of the things God has blessed us with in the Church.

Jim


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:15:00 -0500
From: "Scott Dowlen" <scott * dowlen>
Subject: RE: [NTCP] The Bible's Place in the Church

The Bible must be the foundation on which a Christian bases his faith. It
has been attested by the early church, by history, and by its continued
value as other works of mere literature have lost relevance due to the
passage of time. All scripture is given by inspiration and is useful for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for teaching.

The Bible itself warns of 'seducing spirits' and false teachers and other
dangers that create false doctrines that try to lead seekers and immature
Christians astray.

While I wholeheartedly believe in present-day prophets, apostles, and
hearing the voice of God and being lead by the Spirit -- all those things
_must_ align with the revealed and written Word of God.

In fact, at the risk of being too radical for some... I have felt led to
seek a prophetic anointing. I was praying, asking, searching - then God
spoke to me. He said "You want to hear my voice, but you don't listen in
the places where I've already spoken." He was telling me I was not spending
enough time in the Word. I really hate it when God so directly hits me where
I am. But the Bible says it is because He loves me (He disciplines those who
are His).

God has already revealed Himself (in Scripture). He has revealed His love
and judgment. He has revealed the plan of salvation and told us of His
coming Kingdom. He has given us a pattern for life and tools and rules to
help our lives reflect His glory. There are things yet to be revealed to His
children, but they build on the foundation already in place. Any revelation
that violates the foundational principles already given is a false
revelation. period.
Scott


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:33:07 +0000
From: goodwordusa * att
Subject: [NTCP] You're Invited to Share

Hi, Everyone.

I wanted to invite you to post to a house church newsgroup that you're no doubt already
familar with -- alt.religion.christian.home-church

Feel free to share anything you feel is important to the faith, and to HC
brothers and sisters in particular.

The first posting or two may be delayed in showing up, as it is a moderated
group, and new posters are held up for review. But after we see who you are,
things go right through to the discussion board.

You can see the group at Google's newsgroup site, under
the "alt.religion.christian.home-church" heading.

And for info on how to set up your new readers, visit the House Church Network
at http://www.homechurch/ and click on the newsgroup box. There you'll
find info that can guide you through.

Look forward to seeing you there.

Jim


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Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:55:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Henneberger <jchenn1213 * yahoo>
Subject: Re: [NTCP] His walk, our walk

I won't belabor the point, because perhaps I missed
too many earlier threads. Maybe I'm seeing things a
bit out of context. However, I think that a
reasonable person might easily misunderstand some of
your remarks.

You wrote:

>>>Jewish life is, imo, symbolized by the Priest and
Levite who bypassed the injured, leaving him behind to
be discovered by a merciful outsider Samaritan. Think
of it... the Master is having to go to another culture

to demonstrate what a virtuous Jew should look like.
Ouch! <<<

To boil down Jewish life to one negative image seems
harsh. Weren't Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, Peter
and Paul Jews? Aren't 98% of the examples of
righteous men/women in the scripture Jewish?

>>>I can only conclude that much of their culture is
jam-packed with evil and evil inventions. This isn't
anti-Semitism, just history. <<<

And...

>>> they, like several western nations, have had great
Gospel opportunity, light and privieldge which they
sold for a bowl of soup.<<<

Maybe I'm "tense" about tense, but I notice that most
of your remarks are present tense. And there is such
a tone of finality to it. But let's suppose I'm
Jewish, and just happen to be reading what you
wrote... so now I'm from an "evil" nation with "evil
intentions", led by wicked and unmerciful Levites?
Okay... cool... thanks for sharing. Wanna grab a cup
of coffee?

I'll duck out of the conversation here since I joined
it late... and I guess I shouldn't have just jumped in
and just started blurting stuff out. However, I
really do think some of the language was inflammatory.
I stand by that.
- --- David Anderson <david * housechurch> wrote:
>
> >This really grieves me. I think we are missing the
> >point here. Yes, Israel has stumbled, but don't we
> >see the greater truth?
>
> Hi John,
>
> What exactly really grieves you? I am merely
> attempting to quote the
> Bible in a coherent manner.
>
> I just stated in unmistakable terms that Israel was,
> is, and shall be
> central to God's redemptive purposes, Jew and
> Gentile. You write as if
> you are bringing new information to the discussion.
>
> Please clarify the reason for your grief. Thanks.
>
> David Anderson

 


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